The Foederatio Internationalis Una Voce (FIUV) and the UK based Latin Mass Society (LMS) are both presided over by British writer and philosopher Joseph Shaw. The Latin Mass Society is undoubtedly the foremost organisation involved with the Traditional Mass in England and Wales.
In this interview, he presents FIUV, a founding member of CISP (Coetus Internationalis Summorum Pontificum), the umbrella organisation responsible for the annual pilgrimage to Rome of the Summorum Pontificum faithful.
CWR: You were elected president of FIUV in October 2021; could you briefly present to us this international organization?
Joseph Shaw: FIUV was founded in 1965 by the six first national associations of lay Catholics who wished to preserve the ancient Roman Rite. It was established to represent the interests of our members to the Holy See. The FIUV now has around 40 members, from all over Europe and North America, and increasingly from South America, Asia, and Africa. The Federation holds meetings in Rome every two years.
We have been led by some very distinguished Presidents, notably our founding President, Eric de Saventhem, and his successor, the prolific writer Michael Davies. Besides Mr Davies, who died in 2004, three other FIUV Presidents have been LMS members: Leo Darroch, Jamie Bogle, and at the time of writing the LMS Chairman, myself, Joseph Shaw.
Our Council, which assists and advises the President and Officers, includes Catholics from all over the world, from the Far East to Mexico, and from Germany to South Africa.
CWR: And what is your relationship with Rome?
Joseph Shaw: We firmly believe in the importance of what happens in Rome: not only official acts of the Holy Father and the Curia, but the example of Rome. FIUV and CISP (Coetus Internationalis Summorum Pontificum) in conjunction with the LMS over the years widened the possibilities for the celebration of the Traditional Mass in St Peter’s, which at one time was impossible, and then possible only in one chapel in the crypt.
Thus, the CISP has been able to secure the use of the most prestigious chapel of the upper basilica: the Chapel of the Throne. This has tremendous and undeniable symbolic significance, indicating the legitimacy of this Mass and its practical toleration by Pope Francis, even after Traditionis custodes. The continuation of the work with and of the CISP is of the greatest importance, therefore, and we are pleased to unite our efforts with those of the Coetus for this end.
CWR: What are other FIUV’s main purposes and initiatives?
Joseph Shaw: FIUV has the immensely important role of interceding on behalf of Catholics ‘attached to the former liturgical traditions’ from all over the world. Our Officers regularly travel to Rome to meet officials of the Roman Curia, journalists, diplomats, and others, to seek to understand attitudes to the ancient Mass, to ensure our interlocutors—whether inclined to be friendly or hostile—are well informed about the movement, and to represent our members needs and concerns.
But whereas the LMS and other organisations can make their own representations to Vatican departments on matters pertaining to England and Wales, FIUV is able to present a global picture thanks to its international network of members.
A major project of the Federation in recent years have been the production of 33 short ‘Position Papers’ on different aspects of the Traditional Mass, now available as the book The Case for Liturgical Restoration (Angelico Press, 2019). The papers were produced in consultation with a team of experts from many different member associations.
Another project was the production of a report on the implementation of the Apostolic Letter Summorum Pontificum, which involved detailed information from our members and other local contacts. We were able to present to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith this report, with a summary and conclusions, which included details from more than 350 dioceses in 52 countries. This was delivered to coincide with information coming to the CDF from bishops around the world, on the same subject, in the summer of 2020.
Some of the work of the Federation involves meeting with senior clerics; other aspects of our work have involved historical scholarship and theological argumentation. But it is the experience of ordinary Catholics, the ‘simple faithful’, which motivates the Federation. The movement is alive today because the Mass itself has continued to inspire, to console, and to give strength to many thousands of people in every culture where the Latin Rite is to be found.
Each of us involved in the Federation is also involved in our local ‘Una Voce’ group or ‘Latin Mass Society’, and we can see, in others and in ourselves, the continuing relevance of this liturgy, which can reach such a wide range of people.
CWR: What is your view of the current situation of the Church regarding the traditional Mass?
Joseph Shaw: The situation of the ancient Mass following Traditionis custodes and subsequent documents is mixed around the world, but this must itself represent a grave disappointment for those who hoped that this Mass would be rapidly wiped out.
The experience of our members is that hostility to the old Mass is found above all in the older generation age of bishops and senior clergy. Seminary rectors, shrine custodians, and bishops have become steadily more friendly as time has gone on, and ongoing hostility is sometimes the result of pressure from the very oldest generation of priests. While there are exceptions to this principle, it is clear that in ten years’ time the typical bishop and senior cleric will be much more open-minded about the ancient Mass than he is today, just as he is today much more open-minded than his predecessors of ten years ago.
At the same time, younger clergy and young lay Catholics are often enthusiastic about the old Mass, and find it difficult to understand why it has been so neglected for the last fifty years. The longer-term, therefore, gives us grounds for hope.
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Irony of ironies. I wouldn’t even be reading this or looking for the nearest Latin Mass if it hadn’t been for TC.
Since Traditionis Custodes, opponents of the Traditional Latin Mass have been repeating the statistic that “only” 2% (or 1%) of Catholics attend the TLM, and that therefore, there is no great desire for the Mass. The is the equivalent of noting that the number of Indians living on the Great Plains is down from the previous tens of millions to only 200,000 … so, therefore, Indians must not like living on the Great Plains anymore. Constant persecution, closing of Mass locations, elimination of entire traditionalist orders… that just might have something to do with the numbers.
I don’t know what the actual data is for the percentage of Catholics attending the TLM but I’d like to see someone research the fertility rates of Western TLM women vs those attending NO Masses. I attend both & I’ve observed quite a difference in family sizes even in our conservative diocese.
It may be a smaller number of TLM attendees today, but I would make a bet that they will become a much larger percentage of the population in a few generations. Demography is destiny.
A quick google search can give anyone this numbers – in round figures – of parishes that have the old mass worldwide and here in the U.S.. Worldwide, out of the total 225,000 parishes, only 1,700 have the old mass. In the U.S., the figure is that of the total 18,000 parishes, only 700 have the old mass. It must also be noted that in the majority of these parishes with the old mass, the new mass is also celebrated and is held as the main form. Expect to see a decrease of these number of parishes globally and nationally when TC is fully implemented. One only gets the impression the old mass and its adherents are growing in the social and mass media bubble of the old mass promoters, of which this interview article is a good example. The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.
Again, I think demographics are more critical than the number of parishes. How many children are these families having? And how many will be retained in the Faith in the next generation?
you’re a bit muddled, what you incorrectly call the ‘old Mass’ is in fact the Mass of All Time or the Mass of the Ages. It is the old, current and future Mass. The protestant Vatican II liturgy which you call the ‘new Mass’ is the museum piece, assuming the museum is stuck in the 1970s like poor old Jorge.
M. Philip above – So what? Numbers aren’t everything, unless you’re counting the number of children, maybe.
“The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
The above statement is incorrect.
It is not the number of parishes where the old Mass is offered that is the best indicator of the true state of the old Mass but, rather, the number of people – and I would add “young people” and young priests – who assist at, or offer, such Masses that is the true determinant of the state of the old Mass.
If there are 10 parishes in a city and only one of them has the old Mass, if 100 people attend each of the 9 parishes where there is no old Mass but 1000 people attend the parish where the old Mass is offered, the number of parishes is irrelevant.
The state of the old Mass, particularly in Europe, can be measured by the tenacity of its adherents despite rabid opposition from an aging hierarchy. The statistics are there for all to see in such places as Holland, where the Catholic Faith is on the brink of disappearing, but the old Mass remains.
In France, by mid century, the current trajectory is that the number of priests who offer the old Mass will equal the number offering the new, as diocesan vocations disappear from diocese to diocese. Nothing Pope Francis does will be able to stop that, and in the not too distant future he will not have any say in the matter. He turns 86 in December.
DJR: Your declaration is false and wishful fantasy. Your hypothetical figure of 1000 attending the old mass is not the norm. Again, as I said, a simple google search can give the numbers. The average number of attendees in a typical old mass is 200 not 1000.
It must also be pointed out and corrected that this connection made by most old mass adherents with the spiritual decline of Europe to the new mass is illogical and simply false. The two are in no way singularly connected. The spiritual decline in Europe which is also true in most of the West is the result of a complex of social, cultural, and other factors. It may even surprise those who only inhabit the media bubble of the old mass promoters and adherents to know that the new mass remains and is in fact growing in Europe even with spiritual decline among the Europeans. Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.
So then if the TLM really isn’t as big of a thing as we think, why not let God sort it out. I seem to remember in the Bible when the Jewish leaders were persecuting the Christians, one leader said something to the effect that if this wasn’t from God, then it will die out on its own. If it IS from God, how can man think he can oppose God and win?
I write again to give real world examples of the falsity of the statement that “the number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
The city where my son lives has two Catholic parishes. One of them exclusively offers the old Mass, and the other one exclusively offers the new Mass. Thus, the number of parishes that offer the old Mass is 50% in his town.
Using your statement, “the true state” of both Masses is equal because the number of parishes where each Mass is offered is equal: 1 and 1.
However, the number of people who attend the old Mass parish is similar to the figure you pointed out, perhaps 200-300. But the number of people who attend the new Mass parish is probably 10 times that number, as that parish is huge.
But using your statement, “the true state” of each is equal. Obviously, they’re not equal by way of number of people attending. It is the number in attendance, not the number of venues, that demonstrates “the true state” of things.
Similarly, Saint Mary’s, Kansas, is a sleepy little town with a small Catholic “new Mass parish” that gets several hundred people attending. Yet, the SSPX chapel in the same town has an attendance of 4000, dwarfing the “new Mass parish” by a factor many times over.
Yet, in your scenario, the two are equal because the number of venues is the same. Can you see how your statement is erroneous?
It is the number of people, not the number of places, that is the best indicator in determining “the true state” of things.
“Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.”
From La Croix, September 21, 2022: Belgian bishops devise liturgy to bless same-sex couples.
Frankfurt, Germany, Feb 4, 2022 / 11:57 am (CNA): “Participants in the German Catholic Church’s ‘Synodal Way’ voted on Friday in favor of a text calling for the ordination of women priests.”
Pope told Irish church is ‘on the edge of collapse’. The Irish Catholic Church is on the verge of national collapse, the Pope will be told in a confidential new church report. DARA KELLY @IrishCentral, Feb 15, 2011
Amsterdam diocese: 60% of churches need to close in five years. Almost 100 churches face imminent closure due to dwindling churchgoers, volunteers, and income. LUKE COPPEN, September 26, 2022. 8:11 AM
Wed Jul 10, 2013 – 12:54 am EDT. Italy’s Last Catholic Generation? Mass Attendance in “Collapse” among Under-30s, by LifeSiteNews.com. By Hilary White
Young Poles abandoning ‘frozen’ Catholic Church. Issued on: 26/08/2022 – 12:06
Modified: 26/08/2022 – 12:01Warsaw (AFP) – It is still one of Europe’s most Catholic countries but Poland is seeing a rapid secularisation — particularly among younger generations.
We obviously do not inhabit the same planet. If anyone lives in a “mass media bubble,” it is those who actually believe “that the new mass remains and is in fact growing in Europe even with spiritual decline among the Europeans.”
I lived in Europe for a time in my younger years, and I have family who live there. There is absolutely no truth to the above statement. If the number of people attending the new Mass were growing, there would not be dozens upon dozens of parish churches closing.
But they are.
What is false is this statement: “The number of parishes where the old mass is celebrated is the best indicator of the true state of the old mass.”
That is not “the best indicator” of the true state of the old Mass, and I demonstrated the falsity of it by using arbitrary numbers. It is the number of people who attend the old Mass, not the number of venues, that is “the best indicator.”
“Immigrants and peoples from former European colonies; Filipinos, Nigerians, Congolese, etc., celebrate the new mass and in a way revive the faith of their former colonizers.”
“In a way”? What way do they do that? What planet do you live on?
Nothing could be further from the truth. The Catholic immigrants to Europe who bother going to church on Sundays have not “revived” the faith of their former colonizers in any manner whatsoever.
Where is the evidence for your statement?
Mass attendance in some European countries is in the single digits and, once the older generation is gone, will be almost negligible.
The Diocese of Haarlem-Amsterdam recently announced the closure of 60% of its parishes. When the older generation finally dies out completely, there will be even more losses.
By mid century, 50% of priests in France will offer the old Mass, as new vocations for the new Mass have withered and, in some places, disappeared completely. La Croix reported that, in 2020, 60% of French dioceses had zero, as in none, ordinations.
In the middle of the U.S., the Society of Saint Pius X is building a church which can seat 1500, and their seminary is full. The FSSP also has a vibrant seminary.
The traditional Mass movement has been growing since the close of the Second Vatican Council, and no one is going to be able to stop the trajectory, as it is obviously the will of God.
Yes, the faith is on the brink of collapse in Europe and not just in Holland. Fr. Z. calls it the approaching sinkhole. The grayhairs are too busy managing decline to notice.
And interestingly, it is the older generations who insist on these banal, stupid hymns….