Archbishop Cordileone on the “antidote to the spiritual sickness afflicting society…”

Archbishop Salvatore J. Cordileone has been archbishop of San Francisco since 2012, after serving as bishop of the Diocese of Oakland 2009 to 2012.

He spoke recently with CWR about the Dobbs decision and its aftermath, gender ideology, the need for strong men and fathers, the proper role of bishops, and the centrality of the sacraments in the life of the Church.

CWR: You are well known for your pro-life advocacy. In many ways, the overturning of Roe v Wade hasn’t seemed like all that much of a victory; instead, transgenderism is all the stronger and is taking the forefront. Are you surprised by this? Should Catholics be surprised? What should they do?

Archbishop Salvatore J. Cordileone: Overturning Roe v Wade was a victory that dismantled 50 years of judicial overreach for abortion and returned to the people the right to determine what the abortion laws would be in their individual states. It is, though, a mitigated victory, for there is no “right” for people to decide that it is morally licit to kill innocent members of the human race. The Dobbs decision did, happily, pave the way for individual states to curtail or outright ban abortion but other states have become even more aggressive, such my own state of California, which immediately worked on enacting some twenty pieces of legislation aimed at turning the state into an “abortion haven.” Indeed, the attacks on crisis pregnancy centers–often unreported by the media–which we witnessed following this landmark decision, and which continue today, manifest a very deep spiritual sickness in the soul of our society.

The courageous people running crisis pregnancy clinics for women in distress beautifully showcase what it means to be truly pro-life by supporting women before and after their babies are born. These passionate advocates provide pregnant women with real options and insightful information about what’s going on within their bodies, linking women with all the resources they need, giving them the love and support they deserve to make a choice for life.

When the world around us seems indifferent and dark, it is our faith communities through the grace of God that rise up, light the way, and defend the forgotten, the neglected, and the silenced. This is the antidote to the spiritual sickness afflicting society today.

As for gender ideology, we shouldn’t be surprised that its influence has become pervasive in our contemporary society since our culture has removed God from the marketplace and the classroom. In this environment, many people no longer turn to God to understand nature; they define it for themselves. Gender ideology is the latest bitter fruit of the so-called “sexual revolution”, which destroyed the intrinsic connection between sex, marriage and child bearing and rearing. This was the first step in applying to the sexual realm the principle of relativism, i.e., defining reality the way I want it to be and imposing my idea of it onto nature, rather than the classical understanding that things have a nature of their own that we should seek to discover and understand. Each next step away from this approach is successively more extreme.

Our response should be to stand firm for the truth of the nature of things as God created them and for the dignity of the human person as God has revealed it to us, and share that truth with others in compassion and love. As a personal example of this, Bishop Barber of the Oakland Diocese and I recently released a joint pastoral letter to provide clarity and resources with regard to the teaching of the Catholic Church concerning the nature of the human person.

CWR: Some Catholics say things along the lines of “We are called to obedience first, thought second.” Many faithful feel that obedience to current hierarchs is incompatible with obedience to other authorities, like traditional beliefs of the Church on doctrine and liturgy. What do you make of this?

Archbishop Cordileone: In the minds of many–probably most–people, the word “rigidity” applies exclusively to those who have a more traditional view of issues. However, it applies on both sides of the spectrum.

I was a child when the changes in the liturgy and church worship space following the Second Vatican Council were being implemented, and I can vouch that very often this was done with great rigidity and a lack of pastoral sensitivity to the people in the pews. And following up on what I just said above, we also see a great rigidity in those who advocate for abortion and gender ideology, requiring everyone to accept their point of view or be punished. The Little Sisters of the Poor’s court case and the protests against speakers at elite universities are two clear examples of this.

It has become a sort of secular fundamentalism. That’s the irony: it started out as relativism, but is now a very narrowly-defined and rigid form of fundamentalism.

On the other hand, the obedience that will enrich our spiritual lives the most is that of embracing the sacramental life of the Church. There are so many distractions in our world that can draw our attention away from what is most important. At times, these distractions can even come from within the Church. We are all concerned about the growing prevailing darkness in the world, manifested in confusion and bitter polarization.

To cultivate growth in our spiritual lives and peace within ourselves, we must stay close to the sacramental life of the Church. This does not mean simply attending religious services, or routinely observing certain rituals. For the true Christian, the sacramental life imbues all of existence, and is lived out and expressed in one’s relationships, and how one spends one’s time and resources. We need the sacraments, access to God’s grace, so that in our relationships, in how we live the vocation God has given us, we might manifest the presence of Christ Himself and bring His light into the world.

CWR: Do you think a better understanding of ecclesial obedience could aid in understanding the relationship of spouses in marriage? In what ways do you think strong fatherhood in the home and ex cathedra inform and support each other? How do you think ecclesiastics and married laity can benefit from knowledge of each other’s lives?

Archbishop Cordileone: It is abundantly clear that we are having trouble as a society raising boys to be good men. Many young men today are disconnected from their families and seduced by a culture that does not offer them a clear pathway to achieve a healthy masculine identity, one that is protective and productive. The result is that we are living in a fatherless society, and this is at the root of all of the social ills we are suffering in our time–gun violence, drug addiction, domestic violence, homelessness and massive incarceration, to name a few. We now have more than fifty years of consistent social science data that shows the direct correlation.

It is not just that a very large percentage of children are growing up without a father, but our society as a whole is fatherless. There are very few examples of good fathers in the social consciousness. TV programs, video games, advertisements, movies, and other venues are rife with examples that portray fathers as superfluous at best and more often as buffoons, and men in general as either powerful villains or immature imbeciles. There are very few examples that portray men as loving fathers.

I am reminded of an interview Pope Francis gave last year with Vatican News in which he reflected on St. Joseph, noting that Joseph had an exceptional “ability to know how to listen to God speaking to his heart. Only someone who prays, who has an intense spiritual life, can have the capacity to know how to distinguish God’s voice in the midst of many other voices that dwell in us.” He added that “there is a great urgency, in this historical moment, for meaningful relationships that we could define as spiritual fatherhood.”

The spiritual fatherhood that Pope Francis refers to is not just a metaphor. It is a process that all men must go through to rise above boyish temptations and become good men. To be good fathers requires first becoming spiritual fathers, which is weighted with much greater and deeper meaning than simply siring a child.

At the heart of honorable manhood is St. Joseph, who lived a life of sacrifice for the Holy Family. Like Joseph, the laity and clergy today are called to sacrifice lust to love, ambition to service, and strive to be the example for the people in their lives. This is most especially so for men, all of whom have the vocation of spiritual fatherhood. For most men this is realized through marriage. By committing to love a particular woman, to be faithful to her, to protect and provide, to care for the children they create (or adopt) together, the man realizes his uniquely priestly role of mediating his children’s relationship to God. Much more than simply a begetter of children, he becomes a spiritual father. And here, too, the statistics bear this out: 80% of people who as children grew up with fathers who went to church continue going to church themselves as adults.

The heroism to which men are called in protecting and providing for their children’s and their children’s mother’s material and spiritual wellbeing is even greater today given the breakdown of the marriage culture. In a society riven by family fragmentation, all of us men need to step up and become fathers to the fatherless.

Priests are called to spiritual fatherhood directly, and fulfill that calling by being spiritual fathers to an entire community of the people of God. The laity should be able to turn to our priests as solid examples of strong spiritual fathers who lead and instruct with compassion and understanding. Whether a man is called to be a spouse in the sacrament of matrimony or a spouse to the Church through the sacrament of Holy Orders, or exercises his spiritual fatherhood in some other vocation such as the consecrated brotherhood or single life in the world, all men are called to be the loving, protective fathers our world so desperately needs. When we have alignment in these areas, we have both harmony in the family and ecclesial obedience.

CWR: Is possible for the pope to interfere unjustly in a bishop’s diocese the way a bishop might interfere unjustly in a parish? If so, what sort of response would be appropriate?

Archbishop Cordileone: One of the primary purposes for convening the Second Vatican Council was to complete the work of the First Vatican Council. Vatican I famously defined the principle of papal infallibility but had to be suspended before completing its agenda of defining episcopal collegiality due to the violence that erupted in Rome in the movement to unify Italy (the “risorgimento”). As a consequence, we had 100 years of attention focused on papal primacy with little consideration given to the role of the College of Bishops in the governance of the Church universal (and on more local levels as well). Vatican II, then, completed the work of Vatican I with its Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen gentium and its Decree on the Pastoral Office of Bishops, Christus Dominus.

Nowadays, with so much polarization and a wide variety of opinions on a wide variety of topics–how liturgy should be celebrated, how best to minister to those who feel alienated from the Church, what the pastoral priorities should be, to name a few–the one entrusted with the leadership of a community must be careful not to impose his opinions on those he governs when it concerns matters where there can be a legitimate variety of opinions.

This is the approach I have taken in my own archdiocese. I’ve told my priests that as long as they stay within the parameters–meaning the deposit of faith, the liturgical norms, and the Church’s canonical legislation—they have my support in carrying out their work as they judge best. I may disagree with them on some of the decisions they make or what the best approach is to a certain area of ministry, but I will always respect the discretion the Church allows them to have and I will not restrict it, as long as they stay within the parameters.

There will necessarily be times when a bishop will have to intervene in the life of a parish, or the Pope with regard to a bishop. The question, of course, is what constitutes “just” and “unjust” intervention. Ultimately, the one who governs has to make that decision, but I have found that it always goes better when the decision is made after a process of consultation on it.

CWR: When it sometimes seems like only a handful of bishops affirm the perennial truths of the faith strongly, do you see a temptation for bishops who do speak it clearly to think “I’m the only hope for the church? It depends on me.”?

Archbishop Cordileone: I honestly don’t know any such bishops who think that way. A bishop who clearly and strongly speaks the perennial truths of the Church will know, to the depths of his being, that it all depends on Jesus. I would, then, suggest looking at the Church and Her spiritual leaders from another perspective. Our Lord said that the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against the Church. Think about that: we usually think of this as meaning that Satan will not prevail over the Church, but the protective purpose of gates is to keep danger out. So what our Lord is really saying here is not so much that evil will not prevail against the Church as that the Church will prevail against evil. It’s a promise that is not so much defensive as one that takes the offense.

We can be confident of this because He also promised to be with the Church always until the end of the age, and assured us that the Holy Spirit will guide the Church to all truth. If we reflect on and internalize these words of Jesus and truly believe what He says, then perhaps our focus can shift to a greater trust in Jesus and a de-emphasis on what various people might be saying in the Church and other distractions that foster polarization.

CWR: In what way do you see your task in the episcopal office? When many today speak of the “brotherhood” of the clergy with the laity and therein seem to absolve themselves from fatherly responsibility, what words would you use to describe it best?

Archbishop Cordileone: The heart of what we should expect from our spiritual fathers is found in chapter 10 of St. John’s gospel on the Good Shepherd. Our Lord said, “I am the Good Shepherd, and I know mine and mine know Me. Just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I will lay down My life for the sheep.”

The pastor who is the good shepherd is the one who knows his flock and is known by his flock. He makes sacrifices for them, serving them with courage, generosity, and humility. He is their servant, a servant of unity.

The service rendered to the Church by bishops is first and foremost a service of teaching the faith handed down from the Apostles to build up the unity of the Body, which is the Church. The promises of episcopal ordination reflect teaching the faith of the Apostles–no matter the sacrifice, even to the point of laying down one’s life. Only then can the bishop be a devoted father, guiding his people on the way to salvation, leading them in service to the poor and marginalized, and seeking out those who have gone astray and gathering them back into the Lord’s fold.

CWR: Your family name means “heart of the lion.” Are there particular ways in which your own individuality has made you better able to lead your local Church?

Archbishop Cordileone: I recall a homily of Pope Francis’ several years ago during the Ordination of Bishops when he said that “’episcopacy’ is the name of a service, not of an honor.” A bishop, he said, “must strive to serve rather than to rule, according to the Master’s commandment: ‘whoever would be great among you must be your servant, and whoever would be first among you must be slave of all’.” Be servants of the greatest and of the least, always serving.

So much of the person we become as adults is shaped by our family of origin. I was blessed to grow up in a loving, tight-knit immediate and extended family–not perfect, not without misunderstandings and tensions, but we had the single most important thing a child needs in those early formative years: stability. There was no doubt that we would always be together. I think this helped me to develop certain qualities and personality traits that serve me well in my episcopal ministry, and help me in my efforts to respond to Pope Francis’ call to be a servant rather than a ruler.

As the Archbishop of San Francisco, I am bound to be concerned for all the Christian faithful entrusted to my care. I do struggle in this most serious duty, which sometimes can be unpleasant. At the same time, I am inspired by the tireless work of our clergy and lay people who join me in spiritual and corporal works of mercy by serving the poor, the sick and the abandoned across the Archdiocese. It is only together–clergy and lay people serving within the bonds of communion in the Church, each in keeping with his or her particular vocation in life–that any of us can attain the heart of a lion.