When Harrison Butker gave his now famous and controversial commencement speech at Benedictine College, he probably did not realize he was going to unleash the debate of the month (or longer). Even just one week into the subsequent discourse, people are tackling it from a variety of angles. There’s much to unpack in that speech, and I suspect people will be unpacking it for quite some time. However, rather than focus on the hot-button issues covered in Butker’s speech, I will instead focus on something important in understanding why he (and others) think the way that they do.
I believe Butker employs something familiar to anyone who classifies himself as a “traditionalist” or attends the Tradition Latin Mass (TLM). He employs a sort of “DIY Traditionalism” that applies a rather radical emphasis on personal accountability, is inherently populist, and has little direct connection to Church authorities. As a result, there is a creative energy within traditionalism that is dynamic but also chaotic, which has its own ramifications.
In his speech, Butker states:
Still, we have so many great resources at our fingertips that it doesn’t take long to find traditional and timeless teachings that haven’t been ambiguously reworded for our times. Plus, there are still many good and holy priests, and it’s up to us to seek them out.
The chaos of the world is unfortunately reflected in the chaos in our parishes, and sadly, in our cathedrals too…. Because there seems to be so much confusion coming from our leaders, there needs to be concrete examples for people to look to in places like Benedictine…
You’ll notice there is very little emphasis here on the importance of your local parish, or even your local priest, in helping you live your vocation. Butker does exhort priests to lead their parishes, but his emphasis is on living out your individual vocation, not building up your parish. To those outside the traditionalist world, that may seem strange, as the way most Catholic communities grow is through a parish or as an extension of the parish.
Many Catholics are used to the world of Fr. Gerard Thalen (a composite of several priests I knew in typically conservative Catholic parishes). Father Gerard is a dynamic preacher and an energetic administrator of the parish. He comes into the parish and launches a flurry of new programs, many of them being programs he tried elsewhere, or that he read about in magazines and articles establishing best practices for a parish. In many cases, several of the parishioners at the current parish come from Fr. Thalen’s previous parish. When he goes to another parish, it is likely those same individuals will follow.
I don’t bring up this composite sketch to criticize it, just to explain it. This composite sketch is of priests who have thousands of people at their parish, and their dynamism leads to a robust parish budget and people eager to volunteer and donate. For your average TLM community—the sort of parish that Butker is likely a part of—things are different.
Here is how I’ve seen this work. A TLM community takes root within a diocese, and it wants to spread the news about the TLM. Rather than just promote their own community, one individual takes a trip to a neighborhood parish and asks the priest if a single TLM could be celebrated there, as an act of solicitude for the flock. That priest does not even need to say the TLM, but it would be nice if they came to the social afterwards. If the priest agrees, that individual then calls up a few local priests he knows who can come say the Mass. If someone needs to learn how, that individual is put in touch with lay associations/groups that train priests in saying the TLM. They then either provide the priest YouTube videos or do a private training session, many times absorbing the costs themselves.
To advertise that Mass, a few key individuals in the location are contacted, and they send out an email or post on social media. They spread the word in their own communities. In addition to individuals in the area attending, those communities send “delegations” from their community to be present in order to answer questions and show people what they have found to work best at their community. Maybe, by this point, the parish priest has advertised it in his parish bulletin, yet that bulletin is likely not to be read widely, and most of the people in that community who are attending aren’t from that parish. Once that Mass takes place, this cycle is set up for another parish, and people who want to help out are identified, and the cycle begins anew. The key point here is that a priest’s involvement is minimal.
Both models can lead to some impressive organizations of faith-filled Catholics. Yet the environments frequented by the Harrison Butkers of the world likely came about because of this lay dynamism. This dynamism often came about by necessity, as the TLM grew for decades in an environment of suspicion or even hostility from some Church authorities (a hostility that has begun anew since Traditionis custodes).
Without that emphasis on personal vocation—often independent of the wider parish they may not even have—the Latin Mass doesn’t grow. Instead, it withers and dies. Of course, there can also be a downside to this approach. This aggressive evangelization can often take an overly militant attitude. All good soldiers fighting in the front lines need occasional reminding of why they fight, lest the fight itself become the reason and the mission. With little oversight, people can make mistakes at a far higher rate. (One can see this, I think, in Butker’s coded digs at NFP, a practice that can be easily defended entirely from sources before the Second Vatican Council.) While the lack of precision can be refreshing in ways, that precision does exist for a reason.
This world presents a special challenge for Church authorities, from priests to bishops and all the way to Rome. Due to the past strategy of intentionally ostracizing these communities, they lack that relationship of trust built up over the years the way a parish does with the diocese. When you combine this with the general crisis of authority in the Church (where she has trouble using her influence among those most receptive to her), you have a movement that can potentially go off the rails without a lot of corrective mechanisms in place.
Yet the growth is often undeniable. How the Church encourages the dynamic growth of this movement while balancing out its excess will be a great challenge in the years and decades to come. But, in order to engage with it and help it, one must understand it.
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The article concludes with the observation, “How the Church encourages the dynamic growth of this movement while balancing out its excess will be a great challenge in the years and decades to come.”
Here’s a thought on what *not* to do to encourage growth while balancing out the excess:
Say that everyone involved in the movement has a “suicidal attitude.”
Somehow it see like a person who’s in charge of an organization of a billion people might actually already know that without someone like me having to tell him.
The statement about a ‘suicidal attitude’ is absurd in and of itself and the fact that it was uttered by the POPE in an interview with a major news station in America compounds the absurdity.
One shakes one’s head, one sighs, one moves on.
We’ll get through this.
I’m glad to see Mr Tierney here at CWR.
“One shakes one’s head, one sighs, one moves on.”
One laughs.
If one reads the Acts of the Apostles and the early writings of the Church Fathers, there’s a recurring theme of the “growth of the Church.” That seems to loom very important in the minds of these writers.
In today’s Catholic Church there is unquestionably a dichotomy – a division in the Church. It is essentially this: local parish churches and regional churches that are demonstrably growing and parishes and regional churches that are shrinking, dying. There are some things that very powerfully distinguish one from another. Another example of this is religious communities of both men and women. There are religious communities of priests & brothers that have sustained growth and there are religious communities of priests/brothers that are clearly dying (the latter – holdovers from the pre-1960’s). The same goes for religious communities of women. The question arises: what distinguishes these two groups?
What Catholic in his/her right mind wants to belong to a parish/regional church in its death throes. What 25 year old will pledge his life in a religious community where the average age is 72? And Pope Bergoglio has the nerve to refer to suicidal teaditionalists? He, as Vicar of Christ, ought to take a look at where the Church is thriving and where the Church is dying before make yet another of his ill-informed comments.
Thank you Deacon for serving God’s Church and all his people. Also thank you for those words of wisdom on this Article. I commend Mr. Butker for his fortitude in speaking out but I don’t think Mr. Tierney understands the real problem in our church which is our leaders are not following the Apostles leadership but give in to worldly attitudes.
Deacon,
Thanks for your comment. I didn’t waste my time listening to the interview, but I’m curious to know whether Francis actually used the phrase “suicidal traditionalists”? Isn’t it rather that he wishes that were true?
We put ant-killer on doorsteps to stop ants from coming in the house. We put screens on windows to stop flies, insects, and birds flying in. Francis and his Vatican friends repulsed local and diocesan efforts to even advertise and newly ordained priests must ask the Vatican for permission to say Mass in Latin. Who is suicidal?
By this and other similar moves, Francis abrogates and subverts his own position. A church which rewrites Christ and prior Magisterial teaching will logically self-destruct. No. Francis is not able to think. Error, pride, and sin have totally befouled his intellect.
“You’ll notice there is very little emphasis here on the importance of your local parish, or even your local priest, in helping you live your vocation.”
.
And if your local priest is effeminate, can’t figure out how to give even an NFP pamphlet to engaged couples at the pre-Cana classes? Always finds an excuse to be “busy with a previous engagement” when invited to the monthly pro-life committee meetings?
.
I truly wanted to like this article, and it has a few moments, but my final impression is that it was written by someone who is too enamored of his own ideas and imaginative constructs.
How did Mr Tierney decide that Harrison Butker fits into this “DIY Traditionalism” ? E.g., “populist,” “examplifying a radical emphasis on personal accountability,” and having “little direct connection to Church authorities.” Was it solely on the basis of the Benedictine College speech, especially the one remark that he highlights? I hope that’s not all Mr. Tierney used, because there are a number of interviews with Butker that he could have relied on for fuller information. The facts look more prosaic:
He was brought up in a Novus Ordo parish where he served as an altar boy
He drifted away from the Church as an teenager
He began to return to the Church in college at the Catholic Center at Georgia Tech which he describes in a 2022 National Catholic Register interview as having a “very reverent Novus Ordo liturgy” that he loved.
In Kansas City, he began attending St. Mary’s Catholic Church, a 200-year-old church in Independence, Missouri. The pastor scheduled four TLM Masses, most of which were on weekdays. From what I have seen, that is (or was) a common setup in “hybrid” parishes.
Bishop James Johnston of Kansas City has publicly defended Butker and praised his “passion for the Catholic faith.”
Similarly, where are the priests who make up the composite image of “Father Gerald Thalen,” who is a “dynamic preacher and an energetic administrator,” who “comes into the parish and launches a flurry of new programs” and who has a dedicated group of parishioners who follow him from one parish to the next. From the way the writer talks, one would think there are scores of them. Maybe I don’t get around enough, but I can barely come up with a handful of priests who could be described that way. Now, if there are more of them out there, I would enjoy reading more articles about them.
The “Harrison Butker” depicted in this article seems as much a fictional character as “Father Thalen.” Perhaps Butker, like many TLM devotees, was angered by Traditiones Custodes, and by the response of many in the Church hierarchy, but that does not make him a populist firebrand who has “little direct connection to Church authorities.”
A thought for Mr Tierney to consider: your ideas are not more important than your subject-matter.
I respectfully request you re-read it.
I explicitly quoted the DIY mindset in his speech, even if he doesn’t call it “DIY”
I explain what I mean by little connection to authorities. Not in that they are renegades or rogues, but that their Catholicism is not top heavy, directives from a pope/bishop/parish priest put into action.
Thanks for your response, I just reread it twice. The rereadings did not improve my understanding.
You appear to have assigned the label “DIY Traditionalist” to his Benedictine College speech without doing basic research about Butker to determine whether it was plausible to believe that he would have that intent or even belong to that “group.” That research should have been easy given the number of interviews and article about him in recent years, and it is standard practice when writing about a living individual. Instead, it looks like you simply took the speech out of the context of his actual life. As a result, I feel you stereotyped Butker and did a disservice to him as well as to your own argument.
However, I am willing to get a better grasp of how you understand the terms “traditionalism” amd “traditionalist” because there seem to be different interpretations of what those terms mean, and I am no expert on the subject. If you can point me to an article or two where someone unfamiliar with your writing can get a better understanding of what you mean when you use those terms,, I would appreciate it. But I am not going to wade through your Substack hunting for information.
Hi Mary,
I second your skepticism. I don’t know the source of Tierney’s information, but he himself says his scenarios are “…how I’ve seen this work.” A case study based upon one observer has validity for one person. Such individual evidence may or may not be valid or true for another observer.
Tierney’s observation may represent the truth in only an extreme limit and as a rare occurrence.
The amount of trads nodding their heads to what I described throughout social media would at least be an indication that while not absolutely how it always goes, I’m not making this up either. Does anyone really want an in-depth analysis of how things have grown in communities? Maybe, but not in a 1,000ish word opinion piece! But if you want to go and ask around about trads in state like Michigan, the DC area/NoVA/Maryland, and Arizona, you’ll see a lot of what I referenced here.
As for what Mary said, again, look at the quote I referenced.
“Still, we have so many great resources at our fingertips that it doesn’t take long to find traditional and timeless teachings that haven’t been ambiguously reworded for our times. Plus, there are still many good and holy priests, and it’s up to us to seek them out.”
Again, the onus is on personal accountability and responsibilty, doing your own research, and seeking things out on your own. Its not “go to the nearest parish”, nor is it viewing the parish as the center of your community.
Any other assumptions are not in the text or the focus of what I said.
I don’t know what goes on in other dioceses but we have two parishes that offer the TLM every Sunday and on several weekdays.
It’s a shame there’s any sort of contentiousness about the TLM. For goodness sakes , how many diverse rites exist within the Catholic Church? And it’s not like the TLM is a new invention. Shouldn’t the powers that be in the Vatican be going after the lost sheep instead of worrying the ones in the fold?
I think the major point of the article is that TLM goers form an isolationist attitude. They no longer see themselves as part of a parish. When groups isolate or splinter off from the main group, they are not kept in check. This is often dangerous. Charismatic men, sometimes priests, sometimes laymen, lead these groups and their followers begin listening to them over the Church. These isolated pockets form competitive attitudes regarding the faith. Such as against NFP…having the most children has become a status symbol with them. The longer they stay cut off from regular Catholic parishes, the more rigid their ideas become. This, I believe, is what Pope Francis is warning against.
From what I saw of the TLM in my area, before Traditiones Custodes, that is a stereotype that may apply in some places but not others. Most TLM Masses in my general area were offered in parishes that otherwise offered the Novus Ordo and a priest in that parish celebrated it. There was only one TLM-only parish in the wider area and that was at an FSSP parish. So there was more sense of contact and integration. I mainly attend Novus Ordo Masses but could attend the TLM when I wanted to, and no one there chased me away or shunned me. So I can’t personally relate to what Mr. Tierney is describing.
i do wish that, for those of us who are not familiar with his work, he would provide a better definition of what he includes in his understanding of “traditionalism” because it’s not clear to me what he is including and excluding.
You’re not wrong, there is a risk of isolation. Although with regards to traditionalists, I think Francis views this a feature, not a bug.
The entire point of the old Indult from 1984 (which TC bases itself on, not on requests from bishops) was to intentionally isolate those attached to the TLM, and only end the isolation if they give up the TLM. Church authorities calculated in time people wouldn’t want that kind of existence, so they’d return to the Novus Ordo. Except that didn’t happen. Instead you got the DIY movement, where people responded to the intentional isolation from Rome by getting creative. The very thing will likely happen in the future with Francis’ attempts to reimpose that isolation. (A big difference now is the Bishops didn’t want to go along with it.)
As far as the wider point, I think it touches on a certain reality: the parish occupies less and less a place of prominence as Catholicism has modernized. While you have a few enclaves of hope, most parishes in the West are dying, financially, creatively, and demographically. A lot of creative attempts to stop it haven’t made much a dent.
I think if we’re willing to be creative in addressing some of the other challenges, one can look at these other arrangements and see their future, but also find new ways to manage it. (Some bishops in trad heavy areas have shown some surprising creativity!)
Seems to me the DIY movement is when priests are free to offer liturgical dance, to offer clown masses, guitar masses, to invent their own GIRM where the NO doesn’t allow, and etc. They come down from the sanctuary to kiss and hug and visit parishioners in the pews during the Kiss of Peace. They begin the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with a personally warm and personally demonstrative greeting, asking who’s visiting and from where, then sharing their knowledge and experience of that locale. They speed through a Eucharistic Prayer highly individualized, not following any of the approved canons, then they end on the high note of wishing everyone well at the end. YES. Let us talk of creativity which stems from isolation, self-imposed, and self-directed, and oh, so far from what has happened at Mass from its beginning.
That’s the very first time I’ve heard large families described as status symbols.
🙂
Our local parishes that have regular TLM’s have a deep sense of community & not a few families have registered as parishoners, even though they may drive from far away. Some have actually relocated to the area to be near a TLM.
I attend both the NO Mass at my own parish & the TLM at the next parish down the road. And I support both. It’s all good.
“Charismatic men, sometimes priests, sometimes laymen, lead these groups and their followers begin listening to them over the Church.”
So then these priests who say TLM do not belong to the Church? If that is true, what type of priests are they, and who ordained them?
Ok. So I attend a parish staffed by the FSSP. The priests do not say the NO but say only the TLM. It is a personal parish which means that the diocese has approved its purchase and its operation as a parish. The archbishop consecrated the church when it was newly purchased.
How, then, is my parish fostering an isolationist ‘attitude’? Who has isolated the parish, and why? What reasons do you suggest as evidence for the following: “TLM goers form an isolationist attitude. They no longer see themselves as part of a parish. When groups isolate or splinter off from the main group, they are not kept in check.”
And what is this “check” you say TLM-goers should have???
So
I would say that TLM-goers, like everyone, need the “check” of constructive criticism, of iron sharpening iron, and of authority if things go really haywire. We certainly are not getting those from the Pope. But who is? We don’t get much from the bishop, maybe because he doesn’t like trads, more likely because he has other work to do, or doesn’t know enough about the parish to give good criticism. Which I believe is like most bishop-parish relationships. But trad parishes are still under the bishop’s authority, if things do go haywire, and generally also under the Fraternity’s or Institute’s authority. Extra people to run interventions.
Within the parish, traditionalist parishes are the only ones I’ve heard the pastor deliver gentle course corrections to parishioners’ behavior, from the pulpit. The most direct, effective, and precise criticisms of traditionalists, as a group, that I have heard, came from Fr. Ripperger… a traditionalist. He’s very precise about telling you what’s wrong with you.
On the iron sharpens iron side, simply by being in the minority, and mostly raised in OF parishes, trads probably have more mainstream Catholic friends then mainstream Catholics have trad friends. Outside of church, they’re more likely to run into a mainstream Catholic than another trad, especially given how far trads drive to get to Mass. Daily Mass or Holy Day Mass in the NO is a common thing for trad Catholics, again because of the drive. The only way they’re going to get isolated from mainstream Catholicism is by large quantities of their own concerted effort, or by their mainstream Catholic friends ceasing to be friends (for the record, none of my mainstream Catholic friends have done that) and mainstream Catholics generally ceasing to discuss religion with them.
We don’t affix “WARNING: TRAD” stickers to ourselves whenever we’re outside of our parishes, but that doesn’t mean we never go outside our parishes.
“traditionalist parishes are the only ones I’ve heard the pastor deliver gentle course corrections to parishioners’ behavior, from the pulpit.”
And often the corrections are not what the Church teaches…such as it is sinful for women to work outside the home except for grave reasons.
(Fr. Ripperger is a good example of the “charismatic” priests Trads follow. The Trads I know quote him a lot.)
As the Traditional movement has grown in the past 10-15 years, a darkness has crept into some of our Catholic circles. When we began homeschooling in 2008, the Catholic homeschool crowd was joyful and welcoming. As the Trad movement grew and seeped into NO parishes, in came the “fire and brimstone” with them. They began convincing the members that girls should not be educated at the high school level, and certainly not college. They began measuring skirt lengths and calling out the adolescent girls who (gasp!) wore short sleeves. “Generational sin” became all the rage creating a fearful mistrust of even their own relatives (parents and grandparents). They began saying blessings over everything (objects), lest the evil on the object contaminated them. It was so disheartening and weird…my family finally had to distance itself from our homeschool community.
This is what I mean when I say they follow charismatic people who may or may not be teaching according to Church law, and are not kept in check.
Please tell me where this is true or why you believe that traditional Catholic pastors deliver course corrections such as “it is sinful for women to work outside the home except for grave reasons.” Do you not agree that that is a most absurd and silly idea? Do you really think that women who enjoy the TLM would want a priest to suggest such a ‘course correction’? Why would ANY priest in this day and age say such a thing? Why would a priest in ANY age have said such a thing? I think your experience, if you believe or have truly heard such nonsense, is not general and appears very un-Catholic.
I’ve attended TLM for many years, all those Masses said by priests ordained within the RCC system and under the authority of the local bishops, working in parishes within the RCC diocesan religious model, again under the authority of the local bishop.
Then you further describe the parents in your (ex) homeschool community, thinking “that girls should not be educated at the high school level, and certainly not college….” These ideas are inane at best. Where do you live that your homeschool community was so dank? I have a broad range of different classes and types of friends with children of all ages, and these ideas are unbelievable. Where do you live that your homeschool community was so dank? As a matter of fact, most states require ALL students (homeschool included) to attend instruction and sit for tests until the age of 16. Whether parents don’t agree is moot when facing such a state mandate.
What you say is not RC Catechetical teaching, is not common teaching, has to my knowledge never been Catholic teaching, and sounds to me as if it came straight from the mouth of Fred Flintstone. Or you are seeing and saying
things with great exaggeration or false rhetoric. It simply is unbelievable.
I inadvertently deleted an additional sentence which should help you understand that your experience is totally alien from mine.
I have attended TLM for many years….After that paragraph, insert:
I have a Masters degree and have many other post grad courses and work. I have many classes, types, and categories of friends with children of all ages, and have taught in different types of schools at different levels and have homeschooled one of my children. The idea “that girls should not be educated at the high school level, and certainly not college….” is inane. No one I know would hold to such a stupid idea.
You did not say “may or may not” before, so thank you for adding that nuance. I have never met any TLM group that behaves as you describe, and I’ve been in more than one. I’ve certainly heard self-described traditionalists give thoroughly misogynistic worldviews, but that’s hardly exclusive to traditionalists.
I believe Fr. Ripperger would say that it is a sin for mothers, particularly of young children, to work outside the home, except for grave reasons (like needing the income to get make ends meet rather than out of greed or dislike of your children). But not for women in general to do so. He is hardly likely to condemn the Dominican sisters for being a teaching order, for example. This isn’t anti-woman, so much as an acknowledgement of the psychological need children have for their mother, and the oddity of having kids, only to turn them over to strangers, at a few months old, to do the actual formation.
If you are planning on having the mother teach her children, it is absurd for her NOT to be educated at least somewhat beyond high school. There’s a conservative notion that one ought to expect college education to be career training and nothing else. If you mix that bit of error in with the Protestant-derived error of wife-and-mother being the sole female vocation, and add in an unrealistically idyllic view of the child’s future life, you can get to not wanting women to be educated. But it’s not a traditional Catholic idea.
I agree with this very practical and sensitive statement. Thank you!
I (and my late husband) are converts to Catholicism from Evangelical Protestantism. We attended several dynamic Evangelical Protestant churches during our first three decades of marriage (involving 3 moves around the U.S.), where we served in many different lay ministries and saw constant growth in converts to Christianity and in numbers of active members. But after a nightmarish situation in our final Evangelical Protestant church caused us to be “kicked out” of that church–we avoided “church” for a full year out of fear of the injustice of what had happened to us and our two teenaged daughters. God had mercy on us and led us to the neighborhood Catholic Church, and after 2 years of study and soul-searching, we converted to Catholicism and became involved in many activities and ministries in our new parish. I also was able to play organ/piano in several other vibrant parishes in our city.
Our older daughter converted a year after we did. Sadly, my husband passed away from COVID in 2020 (before vaccines), and I believe this is the main reason our younger daughter and her husband converted–they want to be with him again someday in heaven. They love the Catholic Church and their huge, busy parish–the largest in our state with 18 thousand members! I moved away from my city to be close to my children and grandson and I attend a small country parish.
I had the opportunity to be involved with the Latin Mass parish in my former city as an occasional organist. The priests were from Institute of Christ the King, and the parish is growing, mainly due to the influx of various intellectuals and wealthy people–not particularly easy-to-get-along with people, IMHO–and their men smoking cigars after Mass is not something that I admire.
I can understand why these highly-intelligent (in all aspects but smoking) people are “bored” or frustrated with OFM and prefer the intellectual challenge and the traditionalism of hearing Mass in a foreign language and occasionally hearing chant and traditional hymns accompanied by pipe organ rather than the simplistic St. Louis Jesuits folk songs often accompanied by an amateur folk band of guitar and tambourines. (Of course, considering the dearth of musical development of children and young people due to the popularity of organized sports these days, even the Latin Mass parishes in small cities don’t seem to be offering the glorious chant and polyphonic music that was apparently the norm in the past. As for boy’s and men’s choirs–well, they are about as rare as a steak these days!)
But…the Latin Mass is not for everyone.
I am quite intelligent and musical–but I prefer hearing Mass in my OWN dear heart language so that I don’t misunderstand anything. And although I am a skilled pianist/organist, I actually like a variety of music in the Mass–Latin is fine for some of the music, but also the beautiful old hymns with European origins (often Protestant!), the American traditional hymns, the “folk hymns” of the 1960s and 70s by the St. Louis Jesuits, and the contemporary music of today’s Christian musicians. I don’t mind guitars in the Mass (although I prefer them to be well-played, but every musician has to start somewhere!). I also like children’s and teen choirs. And I like being able to attend Mass wearing a pair of slacks (I don’t wear dresses due to various physical issues involving foot surgeries that have left me with very large feet that make “pretty” shoes hard to find–I generally wear men’s shoes) and no head covering except my hair (although some women continue to wear head coverings even during the most “folksy” of Ordinary Form Masses and that’s just fine!).
I think there’s room in the Catholic Church for both Mass forms, and I think we need to settle in where God leads us and gives us opportunities to serve our parish and our world–and stop criticizing the Form of the Mass and Mass practices (music, apparel of the attendees, etc.) that we personally don’t prefer (except for the “cigar thing”, which I do not believe is part of the rubrics of any Mass!). Mass is not “all about me”!
There’s no food for thought here, just more soured milk from a person who see’s conspiracy in anything that does not set well with his own views. I would rather hear his thoughts on lay participation in the mass, you know, the people who read for example. Standing too far from the mic, mumbling over a passage they didn’t prepare for, but proud of their position in the church. Oh wait could that be the sermon? Or perhaps he could enlighten us on the musical liturgy? How the director gathers the peoples responses into their provence. And we, the parish suffer through soprano Psalms. Some leave and seldom come back. I have come to realize the last hideout of the mass is the weekly mass, that 25 minute full court press to be over with by the priest. At least we get to follow along and respond from our missiles, participate..
I’m interested in your comment about “musical liturgy.”
I am 67 years old, and a skilled pianist and competent organist (I didn’t start learning to play organ until I was in my late 50s!), and since childhood, I have been involved with school, community, and CHURCH music. I was raised Protestant in a very musical church and converted to Catholicism along with my late husband (R.I.P. 2020 COVID before vaccines). After we converted, I played piano and organ in my large Catholic parish for Masses and also accompanied the parish school choirs. I also played piano/organ in several other Catholic parishes, including the Latin Mass parish (ICK) in my former city. After my husband’s death, I moved to the Big City where my daughters, son-in-law, and grandson (3 years old!) live, and I got involved leading a children’s choir and teaching music in a homeschool co-op in my new parish.
I am quite concerned about the state of music in ALL Catholic churches, both TLM and OFM parishes.
To put it simply–ORGANIZED SPORTS RULE! Even very young children (Kindergarten through 3rd grade) are involved in after-school sports throughout the year. Many of the children have the goal of eventually being part of “club sports” when they are in 4th, 5th, or 6th grade, and their practices and games are scheduled for almost every day after school, and much of the day on Saturdays and even Sundays!
The only time I was able to get any commitment to a parish children’s choir was during the month of November, when apparently the children’s sports give way to middle school club sports, and because our parish school doesn’t have a gymnasium, children can’t be involved in basketball or volleyball unless they get involved at another parish–and many do. But some didn’t, and so we had a lovely choir of around 15 children (still pretty small, but they were willing to learn 17 songs in one month to present at a Ladies Christmas fellowship, and every child had a solo!).
But even for the May Crowning of the Blessed Mother, I only had 5 children come out to sing a special number for Our Lady.
It breaks my heart! Several of the children have outstanding voices, and their potential to become excellent musicians (not necessarily professional, but at least beautiful cantors and choir members in their own parishes) is obvious to me!
And these are the children who truly love choir and WANT to sing and learn more about music–but they are under peer and parental pressure to stay involved with sports. I think many parents are hoping for college scholarships someday, and see no value in learning music (although I was only 13 when I had my first “paying gig” in a small church playing piano for their worship services, and have never been without some form of paying work in churches, accompanying soloists and choirs, and accompanying community and school musicals, as well as partnering with talented vocalists in small “combos” that performed concerts in my former city).
Now please don’t get the idea that my children avoided sports. BOTH of our daughters were competitive figure skaters who practiced every day (even Sundays!) in the early morning hours (5:30 a.m.) and who competed all over the world. They are now 38 and 41, and they STILL compete and my older daughter is working on passing her International Ice Dance tests (thankfully, SHE is paying for the lessons herself with her good income!). My younger daughter has coached synchronized skating since high school, and actually moved to this city because of the opportunity to coach synchronized skating and be paid around 8K/ season!–useful money for a college students! Both of my daughters coached figure skating in college (my older daughter was earning $20/hour at the rink while her friends were working in the college cafeteria for $5/hour and they had to wear pink aprons and hairnets!).
But along with their skating involvement (as well as school volleyball team for my young daughters), they both took choir classes in high school and piano lessons after school, and my younger daughter added violin, guitar, and VOICE lessons after school as well as singing in local choirs outside of school. My older daughter, a professional stage manager with extensive experience in the U.S. and London, and currently a professor at a college along with regular work in regional and national theaters, credits her music-reading abilities for her first paying job after graduating college with a Theater B.A.–she was hired to stage manage for a professional ballet company–because she could read a music score!
My late husband and I were not rich by any means. We lived in an aging ranch home in the old section of our small city (heavy traffic), and we didn’t spend much money on home decor, fancy clothing, or the latest electronics. We spent money on our daughters and considered it an investment in their future–and we were rewarded in so many ways, including seeing both of our daughters graduate from college with advanced degrees and able to take over their college loans and pay them all back within a few years after entering the workforce. After my husband passed away, I was able to retire at age 65 with a more-than-adequate retirement (but not wealthy!) income due to wise investments
I hope it is obvious that I do appreciate the desire for involvement by children and teens in organized sports and think that children/teens should be involved in sports. I think that most of them are not likely to continue involvement with sports like soccer, basketball, track, etc. once they are in college and eventually are adults either in the workforce or staying home with children.
But music is something that they will “do” all of their lives, and it can also become a source of income for those who wish to pursue that avenue. And of course, there are many opportunities for Christians, including Catholic Christians, to have some form of ministry in music–if nothing else, being capable of opening the hymnal during Mass and joining their voices with others as we join with the angels and honor the Lord with our joyous praises! At this point I fear that eventually, congregational singing and parish choirs will become a rarity especially in the smaller parishes.
IMO, the Catholic Church is not really a factor in the local music scene in cities and towns. The American Guild of Organists will often perform recitals in Catholic parishes because of the beautiful pipe organs (which no one in the parish knows how to play and many Catholic parish organists are not Catholic). But we seldom hear of an Oratorio or even a recital scheduled to be performed in a Catholic parish by the Catholic parishioners–any concerts are done by professionals (who will be paid well). Local non-professional musicians just don’t seem to gravitate towards Catholic churches because they really don’t seem to be very useful there. As for hearing a children’s choir concert in a Catholic parish–well, that’ll be the day!
I’m very discouraged, and I never see the issue of parish music explored in any Catholic publication that I read. I know that music is done at the huge Catholic youth conferences–I think much of it is led by professional musicians and is often “contemporary” in style–I don’t have a problem with that, but I think that it’s a shame to ignore all of our musical heritage, and I think it’s even more of a shame when we trade music for sports with our children and grandchildren. I can’t help but think that someday, instead of a choir anthem or a congregational hymn, we will see a demonstration of “kicking a goal” during the gathering of the offering.
Any comments or criticisms? I try not to be cynical, but I’m old and discouraged and it’s hard to be optimistic as I see Catholic parish music joked about by the various musical organization that I am involved with.
Mrs. Sharon, there’s a good reason that Catholic parish music has been a source of jokes.
Your comments are obviously heartfelt – and contain a few threads of humility that many may not pick up on. Your comparison of music and chidrens’ sports is interesting and thought-provoking, and something I have not previously considered. It’s not hard to see with the dismal state of music in many Catholic parishes; it has been my experience that a “good” choir (and cantor) that is both musically accomplished and liturgically sensitive is the exception rather than the rule. With all the confusion, lack of clarity, and divisiveness in the church today, maybe excellent music can be part of a salve that heals those who are wounded and inspires and motivates those seeking meaning and truth.
That’s a good point about children and sports. Someone was sharing with me recently that they had to leave at 6am on Mothers Day to get their elementary school aged daughter to a soccer game hours away. Seriously. On Sunday and Mother’s Day.
What happened to parents just saying no? I’d follow Eric Liddell’s example and stay home.
I want to second what Dwight said. The state of music varies from one parish to the next, so much that you never know what to expect at a new parish until you arrive.
My father was a classicsl trwined musicisn snd composer, and at one of our home patishes, he hated the organist’s playing so much that I would catch him grimacing in pain.
At least we can always offer up these unpleasant experiences to Jesus Christ.
My parish has a good organ and a good volunteer choir. Not professional level, and far from flawless, but we can manage some polyphony. When we sing for parish weddings, we are sometimes paid. That can be a nice acknowledgement that what we do is appreciated (and worth something beyond kind words).
But I think the only way music is going to get good in any parish, is if that parish decides that making the Mass beautiful is a holy endeavor, worth effort and sacrifice and study and training. Until then, parishioners will not make the necessary sacrifice of their time, or their children’s’. They may not even be willing to acknowledge that good music requires effort and sacrifice and study and training more than it requires talent.
Our parish had a vibrant ministry and choir- 40+ adults.
We sang a wonderful mix (as appropriate for the readings/seasons) of traditional hymns, chants, contemporary music, international music, “Negro” spiritual music- the congregation was very supportive.
COVID had a big part in starting the slow death of choir attendance (and the congregation as well).
The new post-COVID fundamentalist TLM-loving Pastor finished it when he outlawed all music except Latin hymns and chanting. The congregation further shrank except for the few TLM folks he attracted. The offertory shrank and big cuts in ministries resulted. Very sad. Instead of attracting new young people and retaining old, he drove most away.
I can see little reason for Traditional Catholics to have confidence in the response of the current Church authorities to be other than hostile. If there is any, please let me know.
Consider the hostility is NOT necessarily directed toward the traditional Catholic. Rather it is more likely aimed at the TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC CHURCH. The traditional Catholic groups are simply a small vulnerable starting point from which to begin a skirmish. The larger battles and war will follow if openings in the ‘line’ allow progress toward the new end.
Personally, I have never seen such TLM organizational goings-on….mainly, any TLM effort was a local priest liking it, and maybe a few parishoners, and them giving it a whirl to see if enough local interest to be sustainable…
Which generally there was not, but where it lived or died by drawing outsiders often from long distances, and some of those outsiders rather strange, and young, kind of Butker-bearded psuedo Amish looking with wives and daughters in long skirts, boys with buzzcuts and ties, lower income packed beater vans, looking for a home, sort of religious reverse hippies looking for meaning.
I wonder if the children will stay or resent the enforced pious practices of the parents…
But suspect it will really hinge upon if the parents truly find God and become saintly, or if this mainly (same as most new Mass Catholics) an external acts thing….but, at least they are seeking, God bless them.
As with most articles on such, this one follows the typical total focus on externals and organizations, and pretty much ignores that these are people seeking God and not finding direction on how to find God at a local parish.
Well if traditionally-minded Catholics are like the Amish you mention then they should have very high retention rates of their young people. Something like 90% of the Amish stay in their faith communities.
The Amish population doubles each generation. But it’s not just about demographics. The Amish & Mennonites reject divorce, encourage marriage by creating numerous opportunities for young people to meet future spouses, do not compete against each other in business, pay for each other’s healthcare, & they provide real community. They go out of their way to help not only their own members in need but anyone affected by fires or natural disaster.
Sounds like a plan to me.
Absent a unifying message from Rome in which the old is synthesized with the new, congruent with Apostolic tradition we have discordance, and persons like Harrison Butker who succeed in making the best of efforts within a disunited Church.
The danger of going off the rails, a legitimate concern raised by Tierney remains a possibility, in some instances for variable reasons including in some dioceses where the ordinary may be as ambiguous and hostile to traditional faith as the Vatican, whereas in dioceses where there’s strong tradition and leadership the problem if there were one would be managed.
Mrs. Sharon Whitlock above – Thanks for your comments. But where is the evidence that chants and polyphonic music were the norm before VII?
Granted, I was only 14 in 1965, but my memory leads me to question this assumption.
I’m genuinely puzzled by this article. The obvious response seems to be that Butker and many traditionally-minded people do not think they are receiving the full Catholic Faith in your standard modern parish. Hence, in this emergency situation, it behooves everyday Catholics to really learn the faith for themselves and find parishes that are teaching the whole faith. In my experience that is why many young families are flocking to TLM parishes. They want their kids to be well formed and catechized and experience a compelling form of Catholicism, rather than be formed in the form of Catholicism they were raised in and which failed to retain many of their peers, perhaps even themselves for a while. And I believe Mr. Tierney missed the conclusion of Butker’s speech which was all about finding a good diocese and parish. He specifically said that when you take start your careers, cost-of-living shouldn’t be the biggest factor but rather finding a good diocese, priest, and parish… I think Butker, as well as most traditional folks I know, would say they absolutely want their parish to form their vocation, and, further, that they want to be involved in their parishes. In my previous traditional parish, they had so many opportunities for people to get involved, from mother’s groups, to choir, to men’s nights, to catechesis for every age, to parish upkeep, to FNAE. If Mr. Tierney is suggesting that TLM communities are just a bunch of rugged individualists, I think that is no more true than saying NO parishes are just a bunch of Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence. This article fails, in my view, to get to the heart of what is going on in these communities and why people love them. The traditional liturgy is part of a much larger interest in recovering an all-encompassing, identity-defining Catholic faith.
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I agree with all you’ve said. I didn’t hear or read Butker’s address so cannot attest to anything about that.
BRAVO for the below; you particularly hit some nails into some heads with:
“If Mr. Tierney is suggesting that TLM communities are just a bunch of rugged individualists, I think that is no more true than saying NO parishes are just a bunch of Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence.”
” If Mr. Tierney is suggesting that TLM communities are just a bunch of rugged individualists, I think that is no more true than saying NO parishes are just a bunch of Catholics who don’t believe in the Real Presence.”
That is absolutely not what I said. As I described one typical situation, you’ll notice there’s a lot of coordination that goes on. It’s just this coordination doesn’t arise from the parish or centrally planned. Far more ad hoc and chaotic, but you don’t need central planning to have co-ordination. That seems to be the big problem, and a lot of that just comes from, if you’re not part of what’s going on, you’re part of a far more centralized model.
As far as the parish, nobody is saying you shouldn’t find a good parish. Just that the community isn’t based around the parish, but other institutions. That’s different than what you will see typically. I don’t even think what works typically is inherently bad, as I cited instances where it works pretty well! Just that this speech was evidence of a different approach.
The article’s focus was not ” to get to the heart of what is going on in these communities and why people love them.” But rather to explain why, from a view I’ll enunciate, it actually not surprising why a placekicker would get up, emphasize a radical personal responsibility to vocation, emphasize the importance of not waiting for the priest or parish, etc.
I suspect a fair amount of the “DIY traditionalism” approach comes from traditionalists who came from the Novus Ordo, got little or no guidance, catechesis, or interaction from priests or religious or catechists, and figured out how to live out their faith mostly by reading on their own. This does increase the probability that a traditionalist will be willing and able to start their own things, without waiting on a cleric or parish employee to do it for them.
But we should consider that your average traditionalist parish is considerably *less* isolated than this novus ordo experience. Priests tend to be more available, give clearer guidance even in sermons, provide advice in the Confessional and out (even for venial sins), be generous with spiritual direction, and come around for house blessings every year or so. For many, this is an unprecedented level of clerical interaction.
Yes, the isolation from the hiearchy had a huge immpact on how trads played out, even if your average latin mass attendee wouldn’t believe the absurdity of the restrictions back in the 1980s and 1990s. They never had a centralized parish model, so if they wanted to survive, they had to figure out something else. It was something which was a lot messier and chaotic, but also more dynamic, evangelical, and passionate.
What would you consider to be a centralized parish model? In the 80s and 90s, most trads either grew up trad before V2, or grew up NO and then went trad. The only thing they knew was the typical parish model, and that they were absolutely not going to be able to have that. They sank or they swam, and what we have now is the result of the ones that swam.
I don’t think trads are currently isolated. They were, in the sense that the TLM was essentially underground, spread by word of mouth, at odd times and sometimes unusual places. Perhaps still a bit, in the sense of generally not caring much if those in authority like what we do (those who need that don’t go to the TLM).
I thought it was absurd when the Curia banned putting the TLM times in the bulletin. I think I’d believe the absurdity of the 80s restrictions. They can get a lot more restrictive, but it’s hard to imagine a sillier restriction, in the age of the internet and group messaging. Not to mention the ease of printing a separate flyer and placing it right next to the bulletin…
I love history and love learning the past, but whatever happened in the 80s and 90s happened decades ago, and many current TLM massgoers are unaware of it other than through historical accounts. Quite a few of them weren’t even born yet. The problem faced by the TLM massgoers in my area (roughly the mid-Atantic) is that, because most Latin masses were not “independent” in any sense, but part pf a parishes regular Mass schedule and celebrated by parish priests, when bishops began to implement Traditiones Custodes, and the number of Latin masses was drastically reduced to a handful in each diocese, the only option became “drive a lot further to whatever TLM was still available.” Unless one was lucky enough to live relatively close to remaining site. The need for a long commute at a distant location from one’s home also eats into involvement in patish life. In that context, there’s no point in talking about DIY Traditionalists boldly making their own arrangements because whatever priest they might find won’t have faculties from the local ordinary. So the prospect of a small TLM community arranging for Masses outside of the local ordinary simply isn’t a reality there. I hope the actual reality gets figured into the traditionalist model somewhere along the way, even if it doesn’t promise to be so creative and passionate. I am not a TLM massgoer except on occasion, but I know a few and they are truly hurting right nw.
From what I’ve heard, what happened in the 80s and 90s was that priests would celebrate a private Mass, and let slip when they did that, and people would get the word out and show up. Technically not breaking any rules. There also wasn’t an option for driving a lot further, so people were more motivated to do that. If the FSSP and ICKSP got shut down, I expect that the priests who had offered the TLM before would get asked when they say their private Mass.
This seems a very sensible article to me. I’m in the UK, which may be different, but over here the onus is definitely upon us laymen if we want to establish and maintain a TLM. Our nearest one was offered by a rota of different priests for years, until the FSSP took it on, and it was lay people who organised that rota, kept in touch with the priests, and kept the show on the road. When we were trying to establish a TLM more locally it all came down to an informal network of lay people lobbying the bishops with a unified message – none of the initiative came from the local priests. And we were pretty much there when TC came along and spoilt it all!
On the wider point, I think the disassociation from parish life is both (a) unfortunate and (b) inevitable until the liturgical crisis has been resolved. My local parish church is only 5mins walk away and the priests are orthodox but the liturgy is very bog-standard Novus Ordo, and the same goes for all the parishes nearby. That means we have to either just suck it up and give up looking for a decent liturgy for Sunday Mass, or become church commuters and drive to somewhere out of the area once a week. I would love just to be a pillar of my local parish, but until the liturgy is sorted out I don’t think that’s an option, particularly as I have young children who (I believe) need orthodox liturgy in order to develop their faith.
This isn’t all about the TLM, though I suppose that’s the stand-out example. If a local parish started offering the Novus Ordo properly (ad orientem, Communion at the rail, Gregorian chant and so on) that would be FINE. But perversely that seems to be exactly what we can’t have.
To get a good TLM, all you have to do is drive an hour or two. To get a good NO, you have to either drive considerably further, or convince everyone in a nearby parish (boomers included) that ad orientem, chant, and altar rails are NOT a repudiation of Vatican 2 and that not everything that was “gained” in the 60s and 70s is worth keeping.
Driving doesn’t take as long.
If Pope Francis weren’t so stuck in his ideological box, he would retract CT tomorrow.
Kevin,
This is a very insightful and helpful article. You have zeroed in on the great challenge traditional communities face. Perhaps we could summarize it very practically: will our future traditional community have a parish grounded in stability, or will it remain in a gymnasium/rented building?
Part of the answer is that whether traditional communities have a parish is the result of both self-inflicted wounds and an institution increasingly bent on wounding them. As a member of the Ordinariate, I do wonder if something like an “Ordinariate” for the TLM is a possible path forward, wherein the stability of real parish is grounded in having its own canonical norms with its own bishop, and with real parishes for flourishing.
There is much more to be said on this topic. Just want to say thank you for the piece, and that this is something that needs to be fleshed out.
I am most likely going to anger some readers. I grew up in the church when the Latin Mass was the standard. I also went through the Vacitian II changes to the liturgy as a teen. No big deal and the churches were still packed every Sunday.
Today I see the current movement and I mean movement by these TLM’s looking more like a cult as this article is hinting. I was in a discussion with others where a Benedictine Monk that teaches Latin as a common talking language in Rome. He was questioned by another in attendance about today’s TLM movement. He had only one thing to say, “If the Holy Father was to turn his back to the congregation during mass, he would also be turning his back on St. Peter.” That alone speaks volumes.
Sadly, this movement is like many other issues where it is all about what some people want but as Bishop Barron always reminds us, “It is not about you.”
As a Benedictine College alumnus and a Benedictine Oblate, I know how much the college goes out of its way to teach the Mass to the students which also includes the current approved Latin liturgy as well as the Novus Ordo liturgy.
What I find missing in all these articles is the fact that the Mass is greatest Sacrament for us Catholics and as such, we need to put an end to all this bickering. It is not good for our Souls.
Bickering is not beneficial but neither is suppression. Especially when suppressing the only Catholic population in the West that’s growing demographically.
Global Southern Catholics are growing and flourishing in their own ways, as are the Eastern Rites, but the TLM is what attracts young people in the developed West. And specifically young families who are open to life.
One family who sits in front of me at the TLM has 15 children. Another is expecting their 10th child.
As someone who has been attending the TLM for about 14 years, I give Mr. Tierney credit for “nailing it” in his description of me: when I want to know what the Church teaches, I consult sources like the “Roman Catechism” or Thomas Aquinas rather than the Church’s current leaders, many of whom I consider unreliable; I attend the TLM, which is not offered at my geographic parish, and when it is cancelled at one location, I move to another (which has happened three times); my involvement in my geographic parish is limited to going to Confession and occasionally, when the TLM is logistically impossible, Mass.
I find it very interesting in this whole discussion of Buckner commencement speech, the ensuing discussion have very little to none discussion about the LGBT innuendos that he mentioned Francis has set a tent and tot todos todos todos, As a gay cradle, Catholic and former seminarian at a Benedictine seminary, I strongly feel in line with the pope that there is room in the church for everyone and like someone mentioned in the above discussion, there are many nominations, Eastern Orthodox, etc., within the Catholic Church that practice differently, so why shouldn’t the Latin mass be accepted, why shouldn’t women be accepted? Why can’t we all live in the body of Christ in the church as taught and demonstrated by Jesus Christ?
Because the problem with the TLM communities isn’t the Latin Mass.
It is all the other things they promote, including gay-bashing. The reason why commenters above have not mentioned the LGBT innuendos that you noticed is because these trad/trad sympathizers believe those innuendos to reflect the Truth.
This is part of the toxicity in the TLM movement, and why actually the Holy Father calls them “suicidal conservatives”. On one hand, they will claim that they are growing very rapidly. On the other hand, they are VERY exclusionary because they believe that they possess the Truth.
The TLM people don’t just think that the Latin Mass should be accepted. They believe – and it doesn’t take long for that sentiment to come out – that it should replace what they derisively call the “Novus Ordo”. That’s why they have this obsession about “Spreading” the TLM, as if the TLM were a 5th Gospel.