Vatican City, Apr 16, 2017 / 03:00 pm (CNA/EWTN News).- In a lengthy interview with EWTN’s German television branch, Benedict XVI’s closest aide describes how the retired pontiff is doing as he turns the milestone age of 90, giving a rare look into what life is like for the Pope Emeritus.
Archbishop Gänswein has been Benedict’s personal secretary since 2003, while the latter was still Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. He has remained close at Benedict’s side throughout his papacy, resignation and his life of retirement.
In anticipation of Benedict XVI’s 90th birthday, which this year falls on Easter Sunday, April 16, Gänswein gave a lengthy interview to EWTN.TV in German, sharing insights into how the Pope Emeritus plans to celebrate his birthday and highlights and personal memories of his pontificate.
Among other things, the archbishop recalls how Benedict handled his election, the frequently negative media-firestorm that enveloped much of his pontificate, his hope for what people take from his papacy as well as how he spends his days in retirement.
Please read below for the full interview with Archbishop Gänswein, conducted by the head of EWTN.TV Martin Rothweiler, and translated from the original German by EWTN’s Silvia Kritzenberger:
EWTN.TV: The question everyone’s interested in is, of course: How is Pope Benedict? The Psalm says: “Our lives last seventy years or, if we are strong, eighty years.” That happens to be psalm 90. And now on the 16th of April, Pope Benedict will celebrate his 90th birthday! How is he?
Gänswein: Yes, indeed, on Easter Sunday he will turn 90! Considering his age, he is remarkably well. He is also in good spirits, very clear in his head and still has a good sense of humor. What bothers him are his legs, so he uses a walker for help, and he gets along very well. And this walker guarantees him freedom of movement and autonomy. So, for a 90-year old, he is doing pretty well – even though, from time to time, he complains of this or that minor ailment.
EWTN.TV: How will he celebrate his birthday?
Gänswein: On Easter Sunday, priority will of course be given to liturgy. On Easter Monday, in the afternoon, we will hold a small celebration. He wanted something not too exhausting, appropriate to his strengths. He didn’t want to have a big celebration. That was never an option for him. A small delegation from Bavaria will come, the Mountain troops will come… The Bavarian Prime Minister will come to the monastery, and there we will hold a small birthday party in true Bavarian style!
EWTN.TV: Have you any idea if Pope Francis will come to see him?
Gänswein: That is quite likely. He will surely do so.
EWTN.TV: No one knows Pope Benedict better than you – apart from his brother Georg Ratzinger. How did you get to know Pope Benedict?
Gänswein: Actually, through literature. Back in the day, when I was just about to finish gymnasium, my parish priest gave me Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity, urging me: “You absolutely have to read this! That’s the future!” I said: “Okay, but have you read it?” “No,” he replied, “but you have to read it!” And I did. Later, when I started to study theology in Freiburg, and then in Rome, and then again back in Freiburg, I had practically read everything the then-professor and cardinal had written. But it was only 21, or maybe 22 years ago, that I finally met him in person here in Rome, when I was asked to become a collaborator of the Roman Curia … More concretely, I met him in the Teutonic College, that is, in the chapel, where Cardinal Ratzinger used to celebrate Mass for the German pilgrims every Thursday, joining us for breakfast. That was how the first personal contact with Cardinal Ratzinger came about, and since then we never lost that contact.
EWTN.TV: At some point, he decided to call you to his side. Why did his choice fall on you?
Gänswein: Well, you must know that I didn’t come directly to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith; my first employment was at the Congregation for Divine Worship. But when, in the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a German priest left after a certain period of time in order to go back to Germany, Ratzinger asked me to come. “I think you are suitable for the post, and I would like you to come,” he said to me. “If you agree, I would like to speak with the respective authorities.” And he did. That was how it came about that, in 1996, I entered the staff of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, a post I held until 2003. Afterwards, he made me his Personal Secretary – which I still am, to this very day.
EWTN.TV: What was your first impression of him? What did you think when he called you to work closely with him?
Gänswein: My first thought was: Have I done something wrong? Don’t I have a clean record? So I examined my conscience, but my conscience was clear. And then he said: “No, it is something that concerns your future. Something I think might be a good task for you. Consider it carefully!” Of course, I was very pleased that he thought I was capable of working in his entourage. It is indeed a very demanding task, one that requires all your strength.
EWTN.TV: Which personality traits and characteristics did you discover in him?
Gänswein: The same I had already discovered in his writings: a sharp intellect, a clear diction. And then, in his personal relations, a great clemency, quite the contrary of what he has always been associated with and still is, of what has always been said about him, when he was described as a “Panzerkardinal” (army tank Cardinal), someone rough – which he is not. On the contrary, he is very confident when dealing with others, but also when he has to deal with problems, when he has to solve problems, and, above all, in the presentation of the faith, the defense of the faith. But what moved me most, was to see how this man managed to proclaim our faith with simple, but profound words, against all odds and despite all hostilities.
EWTN.TV: What were the main issues on his agenda when he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?
Gänswein: When I joined the Congregation, he was dealing with the encyclical letter Fides et Ratio, and then with Dominus Jesus, documents which date back to years when I was already part of the Congregation. Later, of course, it was also about religious dialogue – a subject he revisited and deepened also after he’d become Pope. And then the big issue of faith and reason. A whole chain of subjects, so to say, I could witness in person. And it was all highly interesting, and a great challenge, too.
EWTN.TV: It was Pope John Paul II who nominated Cardinal Ratzinger Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. What kind of relationship did they have? What kind of relationship did Pope Benedict, then Cardinal Ratzinger, have with the Pope who was, as we now know, a holy man?
Gänswein: Cardinal Ratzinger, that is to say, Pope Benedict, had contributed with a relatively long essay to a small, but beautiful little book that was published on the occasion of the canonization of John Paul II. An essay, in which he describes his relationship with the holy Pope John Paul II – after all, they had worked closely together for 23 years – and the great admiration he has for him. He spoke of him very often. It is of course a great gift, an immense grace, to work for so long, and so intensely, side by side with a man like John Paul II, facing also many a storm together! And the then Cardinal Ratzinger had to take many blows for John Paul II, since the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith clearly cannot be everybody’s darling: He has to offer his back, so that he can take the blows that are actually meant for the Pope.
EWTN.TV: How strong was his influence on the pontificate of John Paul II?
Gänswein: I am convinced of the fact that the pontificate of John Paul II was strongly influenced and supported not only by the person of the then Prefect of the Congregation of Faith, but also by his thoughts and his actions.
EWTN.TV: Pope Benedict once said that he had learned and understood much of John Paul II when he watched him celebrate Mass; when he saw how he prayed, how very united he was with God, far beyond his philosophical and mental capacities. What do you think when you watch Pope Benedict celebrate Mass, when you might be present while he is praying?
Gänswein: In fact, that is something I see every day, but especially since the moment I became secretary to Pope Benedict. Before, I was already his secretary, but we didn’t live together. It did happen that we celebrated Mass together, of course. But from the very moment of his election, it was no longer a work communion, but also a communion of life. And the daily Mass has become part of this life, then and today. It is moving to watch Pope Benedict during Mass simply abandon himself to what is happening, even now, in his old days, with all the physical handicaps that come with it; to see how intensely he enters the depths of prayer, but also afterwards, during the thanksgiving in front of the tabernacle, in front of the Most Blessed Sacrament. As far as I am concerned, it makes me enter the depths of prayer. That is highly motivating, and I am very thankful that I was given the chance to have an experience like this.
EWTN.TV: 2005 is the year that marked the end of the long and public suffering and death of John Paul II. How does Pope Benedict XVI remember this moment today? After all, with his resignation, he has chosen to let his own pontificate end in a different way…How does he remember the suffering and the death of John Paul II?
Gänswein: I remember very clearly what he said to me when he made me his secretary. He said: “We two are interim arrangements. I will soon retire, and you will accompany me until that moment comes.” That was in 2003. Time passed by…and then came 2005. The interim arrangement lasts and lasts. And he was really looking forward to having some time off in order to be able to finish writing his book about Jesus. But then things turned out differently. And, well, I think that after the death of Pope John Paul II he had other plans, hoping that the new Pope would let him take his leave, entering his well-deserved retirement. But once again, things turned out differently: he became Pope himself, and the Lord took him up on his promise once again. He had plans, but there was another who had different plans for him.
EWTN.TV: Did he expect – or fear – that in any way?
Gänswein: He certainly did not expect it – but, at a certain point, he might have feared it. In this context, I always remember his first press conference (as Pope), where he described the 19th of April, the day of his election when, in the late afternoon, the ballot was so clear that it became obvious that he would be elected. Well, the image he used, the one of the guillotine, was a very strong one, and full of tension. And later, in Munich, referring to the image of the bear of St. Corbinian, he said that the bear was actually supposed to accompany the then-bishop Corbinian to Rome, and then return to where he had come from, whereas he, unlike the bear in the legend, couldn’t go back, but has remained in Rome to this very day.
EWTN.TV: How was your first encounter, after he had become Pope? What did he say to you?
Gänswein: We had our first encounter in the Sistine Chapel, right under the Last Judgement. The cardinals had approached him and sworn obedience to him. And since I had been allowed to be present at the Conclave – Ratzinger, being the Deacon of the Cardinals, had the right to take a priest with him, and his choice had fallen on me – I was the last in the queue. There were others before me, I was the last. And in this very moment…I remember it so well…I can still see him, for the first time all dressed in white: white pileolus, white cassock, white hair – and all white in the face! Practically a whole small cloud of white…He sat there, and in this moment I granted the Holy Father my unconditional availability, promising him that I would always gladly do whatever he might ask of me; that he would always be able to count on me, that I would back him, and that I would gladly do so.
EWTN.TV: What were the joys of this pontificate? Usually, the burden of the Petrine ministry is what first comes to mind. But are there also moments, events, when you could feel the joy Pope Benedict experienced in carrying out his ministry?
Gänswein: There were, without any doubt, moments in which he felt utter joy, and also manifested it. I think, for example, of various encounters, not only during his travels. Encounters with the Successor of Peter are always special encounters; even here, during the General Audiences or the Private Audiences – and, in another, very special way, when he acts as officiant, that is, during the celebration of the Holy Mass or other liturgical celebrations. There were indeed moments full of joy, fulfilled with joy. And afterwards, he never failed to remark on it. It made him really happy.
EWTN.TV: Are there any events you remember particularly well, especially in connection with Pope Benedict’s visits to Germany, which we all remember vividly, for example the first World Youth Day?
Gänswein: Yes, well, the first encounter hadn’t been brought about by Pope Benedict himself, but by John Paul II. And so, in 2005, as we all know, it was Benedict’s turn to travel to Cologne. It was surely something great, something really moving. It was the first time in his life he met such an immense crowd of young people, who were all waiting for him! How will it go? Will the ice break, will the ice melt? Or will it take some time? And how will we get along with one another? But there was no ice at all! It simply worked, right from the start! And I think, he himself was more surprised by it than the young people he met.
EWTN.TV: What are the key messages of his Pontificate? His first encyclical letter was Deus Caritas est, “God Is Love.” The second one was dedicated to hope; his third encyclical, the one on faith, was passed on to his successor who completed it. Don’t you think that especially Deus Caritas est, so full of tenderness and poetic language, was something many didn’t expect?
Gänswein: Yes, one has to say, he published three encyclical letters. And we must not omit Caritas in veritate, which is very important. In fact, the one about the third theological virtue, faith, fides, was then published under his successor: Lumen fidei. But these four encyclicals clearly contain a fundamental message that has moved him his whole life long; a message he wanted to bequeath to men, to the Church.
Another constant of Pope Benedict is a very important word, a very important element: joy, “la gioia,” in Italian. He always spoke of the joy of faith, not of the burden, the hardship, the weight of faith, but of the joy that comes with it. And he said that this joy is an important fruit of faith – and also the one thing that gives men wings; that this is how faith gives human life wings: wings which, otherwise without faith, man would never have.
Another important thing for him is – obviously – liturgy, that is to say the direct encounter with God. Liturgy does not represent something theatrical – it means to be called into a relationship with the living God. And then, in theology, we have the person of Jesus Christ: not a historical “something,” a historical person long lost in the past. No, through the scriptures and liturgy, Jesus Christ comes into this world, here and now, and above all: he also comes into my own life. These are the pearls Pope Benedict has bestowed upon us. And we should treat these pearls very carefully, just as we do with precious jewelry.
EWTN.TV: This joy of faith is something Benedict never lost, despite often even heavy media criticism. He never really was the media’s darling, at least not as far as the German media are concerned. How did he account for that?
Gänswein: Well, I have to say, to me that is still a mystery. Whoever defends the truth of faith – to say it with Saint Paul – be it convenient or not, cannot always trigger joy. That is clear. Some essential things just aren’t for sale, and then there’s always a hail of criticism. But he has never answered to provocation, nor let himself be intimidated by criticism. Wherever the substance of the faith is at stake, he had no doubts, and always reacted explicitly, without any inner conflict whatsoever.
On other points, I have to say, there was a mixture of incomprehension, and also aggression, aggressiveness, that became like a clustered ball that consistently hit at the person of the Pope. The incomprehension of many, and especially the media, is still a mystery to me, something I have to take note of, but cannot sort out. I simply have no answer to it.
EWTN.TV: Pope Benedict was never shy about talking to journalists. In the introduction you wrote to the book Über den Wolken mit Papst Benedikt XVI. (Above the Clouds with Pope Benedict XVI), published to mark his 90th birthday – above the clouds, because it contains interviews often given during Papal flights – you state that these conversations reveal his particular cordiality, his often not understood or underestimated humanity…
Gänswein: Pope Benedict has never shunned away from personal contact with the media, with the journalists. And one great gift was that everything he says is well-worded, ready for printing. He was never shy about answering questions, even questions that were embarrassing – well, not embarrassing, but difficult. And that made it even more incomprehensible that it was exactly this corner from where the arrows came, where the fire was set – and for no clear reason at all. He, too, took notice of it. Of course, there were also things which offended, hurt him. Especially when it was clear to see that there was no reason at all, when you couldn’t help asking yourself: why this snappish remark, this acrimonious presentation? Things like that would hurt anyone, that’s only normal. But, on the other side, we also know that our measure is not the applause we get; our measure is inner righteousness, the example of the Gospel. That thought has always comforted him; it was the line of reasoning he has always pursued, until the end.
EWTN.TV: But was he also aware of the value of the media in the process of evangelization? After all, he has awarded the Medal Pro Ecclesia et Pontifice to Mother Angelica, founder of our television network, which means he must really appreciate her! How did he judge the role of the media in the concrete work of evangelization?
Gänswein: The media are an important means; a means that will become ever more important, especially in our time. He has never failed to recognize the value of the media, of the work done by the media and those who are behind it. Because media work is done by people, not by “something.” Behind every camera, every written word, every book, there is a person, there are people he appreciated, whose work he appreciated, regardless of what sometimes had been used or said against him.
EWTN.TV: One cannot think of Pope Benedict without rekindling the memory of his resignation. That is not about to change, and will continue to be a subject that stirs people’s interest. So I would like to ask you again: Did you see it coming? Was it clear to him that he would go down that road one day?
Gänswein: Well, as far as I’m concerned, I didn’t see it coming. If and since when he started to nurture this thought, is something I don’t know. The only thing I know is that he told me about it when the decision was already made. But I definitely didn’t see it coming – and that made the shock for me even greater.
EWTN.TV: In his latest memoirs – I refer to the interview-book Last conversations with Peter Seewald – Benedict XVI makes it very clear that external pressure or adversities would never have made him resign. So this cannot have been the case…
Gänswein: That’s right.
EWTN.TV: …So this is the final word that puts an end to the discussion on possible motives…
Gänswein: In another book – the penultimate project carried out with Peter Seewald in Castel Gandolfo – he had already answered the question whether or not a Pope could resign, in the affirmative. I don’t know in how far he had, already then, considered resignation, stepping back from his office, an option for himself. When you start to have thoughts like that, you do it for a reason. And he has named these reasons very openly…and very honestly, too, one has to say: the waning of his forces, spiritual and physical. The Church needs a strong navigator, and he didn’t have the feeling that he could be that strong navigator. That’s why he wanted to put the faculty bestowed upon him by Jesus back into His hands, so that the College of Cardinals could elect his successor. So obviously, the pontificate of Benedict XVI will also go down in history because of his resignation, that is clear, inevitable…
EWTN.TV: I found it really moving to watch him deliver his last speech to the priests of the diocese of Rome, the one on the Second Vatican Council. In that moment, I couldn’t help asking myself: Why does this man resign? There was clearly a spiritual force! It was an extemporaneous speech in which he exposed one more time his whole legacy, so to say, on the Second Vatican Council, expressing his wish it might one day be fulfilled…
Gänswein: In fact, that was in the Audience Hall. There was this traditional encounter, established many years ago, where the Pope, every Thursday after Ash Wednesday, met with the clergy of Rome, the clergy of his diocese. There were questions and answers, or even other forms of encounter. And in 2013, he was asked to talk about the Second Vatican Council, which he did. He delivered an extemporaneous speech in which he described, one more time and from his point of view, the whole situation and development of the Council, giving also his evaluation. It is something that will remain; something very important for the comprehension of the Second Vatican Council and Ratzinger’s interpretation of it. As far as I know, up to this day there is no other theologian who has defended the documents of the Second Vatican Council on so many levels, and so intensely and cogently as he did. And that is very important also for the inner life of the Church and the people of God!
EWTN.TV: And I think it is safe to say that he contributed to the shaping of the Council…
Gänswein: In fact, being the consultor, the advisor of Cardinal Frings, he did have a part in it. Many of the theological contributions of the Cardinal of Cologne had actually been written by Professor Ratzinger. There are lots of documents where you can clearly see that. And there are also dissertations on this subject which investigate into the possible influence of the then-Professor Ratzinger.
EWTN.TV: Let’s come back to the moment of his resignation, the very last hours. Whoever watched it on TV, was surely moved to see the helicopter departing for Castel Gandolfo. You, too, were visibly moved…And then, the final moment, when the doors in Castel Gandolfo closed. That was the moment when I – and I guess, many others – thought that we might never see Pope Benedict again. But then things turned out quite differently…
Gänswein: Yes, indeed, the farewell: the transfer to the heliport, the flight in the helicopter over the city of Rome to Castel Gandolfo, the arrival at the Papal Villa. And indeed, at 8 p.m. the closing of the doors. Before, Pope Benedict had delivered a short speech from the balcony, his farewell speech. And then? Well, the works in the monastery Mater Ecclesiae hadn’t been finished yet, so the question was: where could he stay? And the decision was quickly taken: the best option would be Castel Gandolfo. There he will have everything he needs, since no one knows how long the works will last; so he can stay there as long as necessary.
And so two months later, he returned to Rome, and has been living in the monastery Mater Ecclesiae ever since. He himself had said that he would withdraw, going up to the mountain in order to pray. He didn’t mean a withdrawal into private life, but into a life of prayer, meditation and contemplation, in order to serve the Church and his successor. His successor often told him that he shouldn’t hide. He invites him often to important public liturgies, consistories like – I remember it well – the inauguration ceremony of the Holy Year on the 8th of December 2015.
He is present, even when no one sees him. But often he has been seen. He simply wants to be present, as much as possible, while remaining all the same invisible.
EWTN.TV: Many people wish to meet him, and he allows them to. Does he enjoy these encounters? I myself had the chance of a brief encounter with him. There are still many people who ask to see him.
Gänswein: Yes, there are many people who ask to meet him; and many are sad when this is not possible. But those who come, are all very happy, very glad. And the same goes for him. Every encounter is also a sign of affection, a sign, so to say, of approval. And human encounters always do us good.
EWTN.TV: Do some of these people also ask him for advice?
Gänswein: Definitely. I’m convinced of that. I’m never there, though; these encounters are private. Of course, he sometimes talks about it, we talk about those visits. There are indeed people who seek his advice on personal matters. And I’m convinced that the advice they receive is indeed good…
EWTN.TV: Does he still receive many letters? Who writes to him?
Gänswein: People he has known in the past. And also people I don’t know, and he doesn’t know, but who have clearly re-discovered him through literature. They express their gratitude, their happiness, but also their worries: people from all around the world. The people who write to him are very different; they do not belong to the same category, no: it’s people of different ages, of different positions, from all walks of life, a complete mixture.
EWTN.TV: We have talked about “seeking advice:” Pope Francis, who is of a certain age himself, has always said that we should ask our grandparents for advice. Has Pope Francis ever asked Benedict for advice? What kind of relationship do they have?
Gänswein: Yes, indeed, in one of his interviews, Pope Francis is said to be happy about having a grandfather like Benedict – a “wise” grandfather: an adjective not to be omitted! And I am convinced that, as far as this is concerned, one thing or another will come up, or come out, from their contacts and encounters.
EWTN.TV: Your relationship with Benedict is a very close, very personal one. I don’t know if it would be appropriate to talk about a relationship between father and son. Have you ever talked with him about your future?
Gänswein: No.
EWTN.TV: It is known that you would love to engage in pastoral care, that you already do engage in pastoral care.
Gänswein: It was always like that: we didn’t talk about it. Only the very moment he said that he would resign, he asked me to accept the office I still hold. It was his decision, and he hadn’t talked with me about it beforehand. I was very skeptical, and remarked: “Holy Father, that might not be my thing. But if you think it is right for me, I will gladly and obediently accept it.” And he replied: “I do think so, and I ask you to accept.” That was the only time we talked about me and my future career.
EWTN.TV: What are the subjects you talk about? What are the issues that concern him in our world full of crises; what worries him about the situation of the Church?
Gänswein: Well, of course, Pope Benedict takes an interest in what happens in this world, in the Church. Every day, as the conclusion to the day, we watch the news on Italian TV. And he reads the newspapers, the Vatican press review. That is a large range of information. Often we also talk about actual issues that concern our world, about the latest developments here in the Vatican, and beyond the Vatican, or simply common memories regarding things happened in the past.
EWTN.TV: Is he very worried about the Church?
Gänswein: Of course, he has noted that the faith, the substance of the faith, is about to crumble, above all in his homeland, and that inevitably worries, troubles him. But he is not the kind of man – he never was and never will be – who will have the joy taken away from him! On the contrary: he brings his worries to his prayers, hoping that his prayers will help to put things right.
EWTN.TV: He brings them to his prayers and surely also to Holy Mass. On Sundays, he delivers homilies, and is also keeping notes. What happens to these notes?
Gänswein: Well, it is true that Pope Benedict comments on the Gospel. He does so every Sunday, and most of the time only in the presence of the (consecrated laywomen of) “Memores Domini” and myself. Sometimes there might also be a visitor, or – should I not be there – a fellow priest who will then concelebrate. His homilies are always extemporaneous. It is true, he has a sermon notebook, and he takes notes. And I have been asking myself the same question: what happens to these notes? Of course we will keep a record of them. I would like to ask him one day if he could take a look at the notes we have, in order to approve them. I don’t know, though, if that day will ever come.
EWTN.TV: Pope Benedict is undoubtedly one of the greatest theologians…as far as of our century is concerned, he surely is! He has been referred to as the “Mozart of theology.” In your introduction to the already mentioned book Über den Wolken mit Papst Benedikt XVI (Above the Clouds with Pope Benedict XVI) you wrote: “Pope Benedict XVI is a Doctor of the Church. And he has been my teacher up to this day.” What have you learned from him, maybe even in the last weeks?
Gänswein: As I already said, my theological thinking started with the reading of Ratzinger’s Introduction to Christianity. The theological teacher who accompanied my theological studies, and the time that followed, has always been the theologian Ratzinger, and still is. Being given the chance to meet him in person, to learn from his personal example, is of course an additional gift, something unexpected, and I am very grateful for that. I know it is a grace – a grace for which I will thank the Lord every single day.
EWTN.TV: So what could be, in your opinion, the lesson Pope Benedict would like us to learn from his pontificate?
Gänswein: His great concern was that the faith could evaporate. And it is surely his greatest wish that every man be in direct relationship with God, the Lord, with Christ, and that we might dedicate to this relationship our time, strength and affection. Whoever does that, will prove the same sentiment Benedict has in mind when he talks about “joy.” I think the greatest gift would be, if men allowed his proposal or what moved him, to become part of their lives.
EWTN.TV: Our wish to you: could you please assure Pope Benedict also in the name of our viewers, of our thankfulness, our sentiments of appreciation, and convey him our heartfelt best wishes for his 90th birthday! And thank you so much for this conversation!
Gänswein: Thank you. I will gladly convey your wishes, and thank you for having me!
[…]
At first it seemed retaliation without just cause. However, the ‘specific’ charge of “denying the legitimacy of Pope Francis as the rightful pontiff” appears serious enough, although the wording “denying the legitimacy” could mean lots of things. For example, denying the validity of Francis’ election, or that Pope Francis is unfit for the position of supreme Pontiff. This latter can be construed as an opinion, which doesn’t rise to the canonical definition of schism. Fundamentally, schism is the repudiation of a binding Pontifical pronouncement. That I haven’t perceived in Archbishop Carlo Viganò. However he did appear to publicly repudiate Vat II in an essay, but then followed it with the explanation that he actually repudiated how Vat II was interpreted. If there’s more convincing evidence than that I haven’t seen it. Although perhaps there is more.
Needless to say, I hope this can be resolved. It seems he can choose his canon lawyer advocate to make his defense. I’m sorry for him and for the many of us who admired Viganò’s forthrightness while Apostolic nuncio. Cardinal Parolin admits to that.
Dear Fr Peter, thanks for this restrained & balanced comment.
Some would want to reflect on the political value PF hopes will flow from decapitating a senior & well-informed critic of his scandalously anti-Apostolic acts:
“This’ll shut-up any other cardinals who’d dare to think for themselves! After their long careers, they’ll be terrified of exclusion!”
I have seen PF totally destroy another Cardinal in good standing who mercifully pointed out doctrinal error. He was stripped of his office and not given another assingment. When he chose ro stay in Rome, he was stripped of his monetary stipend as well. It saddens me to see such retaliatory behavior by our Supreme Poniff. It also continues to sadden me to see sexual predators go unpunished. I am still in full communion with the Catholic Church, but find many recent censures quite dismaying. I simply peay for God’s continuing guidance for our Church and for Pope Francis. As a sidenote, I gave up my shoe-in career in any public school of my choice in my state to serve the Church by teaching in a Catholic School system and working for pennies on the dollar while my husband labored 12-14 hrs. a day 365 days a year as a bulk milk hauler with no foreseeable future. I am not patting mydelf on the back in ANY way…I simply made the choice because I BELIEVED it was the BEST way to raise our 2 daughters…
God bless you and your family Mrs Jill.
Yes, there’s that [intimidation] as a consideration. Although most important is the validity of the Archbishop’s contentions. He deserves great credit for the exposure of the McCarrick files and the pontiff’s non response. What followed, much of it detailed by Peter Beaulieu, is the larger contention most of us are aware of. That is, aside from the Covid pharmaceutical conspiracy and like presumed issues, that which directly impacts the direction of our Church. We can also place aside the manner in which these matters were presented.
Nonetheless he did address them according to his conscientious convictions. As you’re aware these apparent transgressions from perennial doctrine, although done informally, have endangered the salvation of a host of people. The duty of a bishop, who has the ordained office defender of the faith is to address these apparent transgressions. Others, notably Cardinal Burke have engaged the pontiff and paid a price. Carlo Viganò witnessed Christ as he saw fit in his particular circumstances. In the end Christ will be his judge at the final tribunal. However faulty his efforts may have been, we clerics must concede he faithfully performed his duty under extreme duress. Savonarola was burned at the stake. Our modern Savonarola may suffer excommunication. Justice however God wills will triumph.
It won’t shut up several faithful, older Cardinals such as Raymond Cardinal Burke to speak truth when necessary regarding the Catholic faith.
I wonder what a Canonist such as Edward Peters would have to say about these charges?
Does Fr Morello really need to remind us of his Ph.D. With every comment?
No Charles. But I worked so hard to get the damn thing that I want to show it off.
Hilarious reply Fr. M!
Perfect.
Father Morello it IS difficult to get a PhD, but I think that “Fr.” in front of your name is the best accomplishment. Having said that, I offer the following, not to pile on, but because I think this is one of the most entertaining videos ever posted. It is a parody inspired by former CA Senator Babs Boxer. Two minutes that will make everyone’s weekend. Enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjayK62XBCE
Do you know how to change your username or image Charles? Perhaps Fr. Peter does but I don’t. If you do, please let me know so I can tweak mine & add a non-generic image . Thanks.
Charles, I secured a place for an M.A. but then couldn’t move past 1st base and right now I am exploring the ballpark mostly like in the bleachers. Hooray for Fr.’s Ph.D.!
The schism charge suggests to me they want to separate Vigano from whatever leadership he has over his “following” and through his service commitments.
I thought it stood for Possible herniated Disk(Disc?), and have been praying for his strength!
Thank you Father Peter, as your succinct letter better places charges in context. I suppose many Catholics then would be at risk for excommunication, as they disagree with how Pope Francis has approached controversial and sensitive topics, and perhaps more what he has seemingly failed to do, rather than explicit actions. Moreover, many Catholics have since read documents from Vatican II and drawn the same conclusion that the content was “interpreted”–or “misconstrued” to extend beyond and outside the parameter of the Council. However, who is listening, and where is tha synod focus?
I accept that Pope Francis was elevated by the Holy Spirit though who of us understands God’s Will–Divine Plan–in this? His papacy is legitimate, but what Pope has not been confronted by criticism in the performance of that position in some way by Bishops, fellow clergy, and the laity? If questioning and even raising serious and legitimate concerns are grounds for excommunication, I would imagine millions would be so disposed.
Amen, and again amen.
In the third century, Bishop Cyprian of Carthage controverted Pope Stephen’s views on baptism by heretics. Cyprian (whose opinion the Bishop of Rome denied) became a saint, and Pope Stephen also became a saint, both through martyrdom for the faith.
St. Peter’s comportment at St. Paul’s controverting his Judaizer sympathies, is described by Cyprian:
Peter, whom first the Lord chose, and upon whom He built His Church, when Paul disputed with him afterwards about circumcision, [did not] claim anything to himself insolently, nor arrogantly assume anything; so as to say that he held primacy [primates, seniority], and that he ought rather to be obeyed by novices and those lately come. — Epistle 71[70]:3
I hope that both Vigano and Francis begin to behave as saints should.
Spare us, O Lord, O spare us, thy people:
and let not thy wrath be upon us ever.
The haze is removed. Thank you meiron.
I believe Vigano should go and “do as they say but not do as they do”. He should use the opportunity to give voice to what is going unsaid pertinent to the occasion and appertinent (appurtenant) to the issues. And this would be charity in communion. I know it’s hard to do. One has to force one’s mind to settle and ask God to shed His light and bring out the matter.
By using the verb appertain I do not mean merely legal accompaniment. I mean an embrace of the whole scale of accompanying issues legal and other. Charging Vigano in isolation of the rest of it is harmful to all and to the Pope and NOT taken into consideration amounts to putting unwarranted, albeit opportunistic blocks to Vigano.
Thanks that is very helpful.
“Fundamentally, schism is the repudiation of a binding Pontifical pronouncement.”
Affirmation of the Sanctity of the marital act within The Sacrament Of Holy Matrimony, and the Sanctity of human life from the moment of conception, have always been “a binding Pontifical pronouncement “.
To follow a man who could not have been canonically elected to The Papacy, because as a cardinal he “repudiated a binding Pontifical pronouncement “, is to follow a schismatic into schism.
“Canon 188 §4 states that among the actions which automatically (ipso facto) cause any cleric to lose his office, even without any declaration on the part of a superior, is that of “defect[ing] publicly from the Catholic faith” (” A fide catholica publice defecerit“).“
It has always been about The Marriage In Heaven and on earth.
“Blessed are those who are Called to The Wedding Supper Of The Lamb.”
A few years back CWR generously carried articles–and enabled a long thread of comments from non-credential/non-clericalist readers–on how to regard the Second Vatican Council. Part of that dialogue (!) pointed to the difference between the “real” council and the “virtual” council fed to the media by Hans Kung et al (Benedict’s terms). Brief but strategic Teilhardian phrases edited into the Documents, here and there, are offset by other interventions…etc.
FOR EXAMPLE, these correctives: “The Christian dispensation, therefore, as the new and definitive [!] covenant, will never pass away, and we now await no further new public revelation [synodal Holy Spirit?] before the glorious manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ (cf 1 Tim 6:14, Tit. 2:13)” (Dei Verbum, n.4). AND: “In the depths of his conscience, man detects a law he does not impose upon himself, but which holds him to obedience [….] the Council wishes to recall first of all the permanent binding force of universal natural law and its all-embracing principles” (Gaudium et spes, n. 16, 79). AND, “Christ the Lord…by the revelation of the mystery of the Father and His love, fully reveals man to himself [!] and makes his supreme calling clear” (Gaudium et Spes, n. 22).
QUESTION: Such wording, maybe only a pitchfork against the incoming tide. But without airbrushing the Council, itself, as the apostasy, one could still flag the abuses of sleeper-cell termites now said to be consuming the Barque of Peter. Vigano has “aggregated, compiled and synthesized” (the synodal jargon!) a litany charges…
Even if Cardinal Vigano’s points can be shown to be only half-truths or worse, why can’t they finally be received in a spirit of mutually respectful dialogue (!) also involving other half-truths or worse? Why aren’t the adults in the room?
Cardinal Vigano: ” […. Pope Francis] promotes uncontrolled immigration and calls for the integration of cultures and religions. Globalism supports LGBTQ+ ideology: [Pope Francis] authorizes the blessing of same-sex couples and imposes on the faithful the acceptance of homosexualism, while covering up the scandals of his protégés and promoting them to the highest positions of responsibility. Globalism imposes the green agenda: [Pope Francis] worships the idol of the Pachamama, writes delirious encyclicals about the environment, supports the Agenda 2030, and attacks those who question the theory of man-made global warming. He goes beyond his role in matters that strictly pertain to science, but always and only in one direction: a direction that is diametrically opposed to what the Church has always taught. He has mandated the use of experimental gene serums, which caused very serious damage, death and sterility, calling them ‘an act of love,’ in exchange for funding from pharmaceutical companies and philanthropic foundations. His total alignment with the Davos religion is scandalous. Wherever governments at the service of the World Economic Forum have introduced or extended abortion, promoted vice, legitimized homosexual unions or gender transition, encouraged euthanasia, and tolerated the persecution of Catholics, not a word has been spent in defense of the Faith or Morals that are threatened, or in support of the civil battles of so many Catholics who have been abandoned by the Vatican and the Bishops. Not a word for the persecuted Catholics in China, with the complicity of the Holy See, which considers Beijing’s billions more important than the lives and freedom of thousands of Chinese who are faithful to the Roman Church [….] (June 20, 2024).
SUMMARY: The historic challenge, threat, and opportunity picked up by the two Vatican Councils together, is how to fully engage the good elements of historical modernity while at the same time being fully faithful to the reality of the historical and singular Incarnation and Pentecost (aggiornamento and ressourcement)?
As always, and especially now, how to be in the world without being of the world?
Dear Peter D. Beaulieu: “how to be in the world without being of the world?”
As so very many well-informed, very loyal Catholics – like Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò – have commented, along the lines:
“This cannot be achieved in the P. Francis way of striving to be the first Summum Pontifex Paganorum; truly a novelty in our venerable Catholic ecclesial history!”
In a culture of social-media obsession, NOVELTY makes the pope to be OF the world. He is intoxicated by a popularity that betrays our Master, Jesus Christ.
In some ways, Archbishop Carlo Maria Viganò represents all Catholics in courageously trying to face the PF faction with the plain truth. THAT is true loyalty.
Yet, like Pontius Pilot, they retort:
“Of what use is truth? Don’t you know we have the power to cut you off?”
How sad to see The Church becoming more & more like Russia, China, & North Korea, with honest freedom of expression forcefully suppressed.
Keep praying, everyone; King Jesus Christ is still on The Throne!
Looks like koochy-koo katholicism has gone on vacation for the summer? That is, until we have the termination of the Vetus Ordo in July. Would that the likes of James Martin SJ and others of a heterodox bent on a range of issues — moral, theological, liturgical — shoulder the same penalty. Then, perhaps, this affront to justice against Archbishop Viganò might have an iota of credence.
We Americans have a unique experience this season. Two tiers of justice boldly on display in both Church and society. Secular materialist globalism reigns high in both. As someone noticed at another Catholic website, Hans Kung, who denied the infallibility of the Pope, did not face this consequence.
Whatever could be going on?
There is something going on here that transcends the picture we have at the moment. Is there a method to Viganò’s madness?
I would not be surprised. May it be speculated that Archbishop Viganò’s most recent statements were a calculated move to bring his concerns to the canonical venue? After all, it has been 2827 days since Cardinals Brandmüller, Burke, Caffarra, and Meisner sent their dubia regarding Amoris Laetitia to the Holy See where it remains unanswered.
Archbishop Viganò will have his day in court. What will be brought to light at that time could be quite illuminating regarding far more than Archbishop Viganò. The man is not foreign by any means to the complexities of ecclesial existence in the corner office.
May God reward Archbishop Viganò for his willingness to put his head on the block in defense of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church — Christ’s One True Church.
It is not for nothing that most decent, American Catholics that I know lack faith in their political and Church leaders. Instead of looking to our leaders, though, we should look to ourselves:
Let’s teach the Faith to our children ourselves without waiting on “the Church” to do it for us. Let’s do what Jesus commanded us without waiting on “the Church” to do it (or tell US to do it).
I have been waiting decades for “the Church” to get it’s act together, and I doubt I will see any real change before I die. The good news is that you can be the person God wants you to be in spite of Church leaders. Sad that it’s like that, but such is life…
Very good advice in the current dysfunctional and chaotic situation in our Catholic Church!
Spot on. I taught high school religion for two years at the end of the seventies. You cannot imagine the resistance I received from the faculty for insisting that the students be responsible for the material conveyed in class. It was all academic — no banners and poster work.
The Church has been committing suicide since 1958.
Thank you for your faith. My journey from atheism to Catholicism occurred mostly during the seventies. My scientific work enabled me to eventually find the fingerprint of God, and a pro-life orientation made me curious about religion. But it took time before witnessing all the dissenting Catholics in the seventies prepared me, with grace, to figure out that human pride always rebels against deep truth. And along with meeting my late wife, meeting those other Catholics who held firm pulled me over the top in the long climb up the hill. I don’t know what my life would have been with a Francis as pope back then.
What is often forgotten or not known by those who find Archbishop Vigano a sort of hero in their anti-Pope Francis cause and sentiments is that Vigano became what he is now as a schismatic sedevacantist disgruntled bishop starting in 2016 only. As Nuncio to the U.S., he botched the 2015 Papal Visit to the U.S.. Because of this he was returned to headquarters and mothballed (given no official assignment) which effectively derailed his ambition for higher ecclesiastical office. (His successor Christophe Pierre was elevated a Cardinal.). His diatribes against Pope Francis and Vatican II are not based on principles or convictions, they are only his way of getting back at his boss who fired him.
Francis might find the same reaction to his persecution and attempt to silence those who criticize his leadership that we seem to be experiencing here in the USA with Deep State’s attempt to silence its political enemies.
The reaction is a backlash against autocratic, totalitarian rulers.
Let’s remember that freedom of thought/ freedom of speech is an inalienable right. It cannot be surrendered, forfeited or taken away by any entity as it is endowed by our Creator God.
Dear DD: if your emotional, popesplaining post were presented in a court of law it would be roundly excluded, for fervid partisan lack of balance and logic.
1. no one has an: “anti-Pope Francis cause & sentiment” – from the Dubia through all too many other critiques, it is the FACTS of PF’s serious errors (unlike any other pope of recent times) that causes good Catholics, worldwide to repeatedly make factual protests – again, unlike with any other pope in my memory.
2. Archbishop Vigano (like many others who are learned in Canon Law) has expressed concern with the validity of some of the ungodly mechinations uniquesly involved in the election of PF. History will no doubt illuminate what Rome is concealing.
3. On what sort of hearsay do you claim Archbishop Vigano has “botched” his duties?
4. Careful consideration by learned, committed Catholics of the many serious issues raised by AV (see for example Fr Peter Morello PhD and Peter D. Beaulieu; & there’re numerous others) makes nonsense of your claim that AV’s questionings of our current pope: “are not based on principles or convictions”.
Sadly, we’re now in an age of rampant, partisan disinformation. Is it not inadvisable for Catholic lay or clergy to fall over themselves into that rabbit hole?
Ever seeking to hear & lovingly follow King Jesus Christ; blessings from marty
Perhaps what you say is true as to his motive but as best that I can discern Vigrano has been truthful and has not engaged in false witness against Pope Francis whose yes does not necessarily mean yes, nor does his no, necessarily mean no to the rejection of clarity within his body of work.
Deacon Dom has given a pretty good example of an ‘ad hominem’ argument. I thought personal attacks were discouraged in these comments.
Hard to read motives, but at the same time there may be a bit of truth in what you say! 😏
True Catholics abjure “bits of truth”.
We have THE TRUTh.
DD errs in defending PF’s corruptions of truth, and malicious attacks against truth-speakers.
Why not? It’s a qualification he no doubt worked hard to earn, and which attests to a certain depth of knowledge.
Do you need to remind us you’re a deacon?
Deacon Dom: As a hopeless backwardist, need I remind you of the Ten Commandments. Number Eight involves not treating your presumptions of motivations as factual and then repeating them as factual in public.
I am willing to spend the entirety of my net worth saved for my retirement and remaining few years to finance his defense and/or a public demonstration in St. Peter’s Square in his defense. I do not have the means to organize such an effort, but if anyone can, I am willing to support it.
Can’t a young person be found who will claim to be a sexual abuse victim of Archbishop Vigano?
Then the truth-telling cleric would be home free as far as Bergoglio’s Dark Vatican goes.
…Á la Rupnik.
It seems the church would be better off if II had never happened?
We seem to be like a Protestant church with the Eucharist and accompanying rituals.
God Bless Abp Vigano.
In case the ‘world’ hasn’t noticed: evil never stops, not in our suffering country, not in our suffering Church. Let us remember Solzhenitsyn “Man has forgotten God”.
And let us heed Our Lady of Fatima “the errors of Russia will spread throughout the world.” Now compare the USA Today to Bolshevik Russia under Lenin and Stalin. Atheism and murder of innocent babies in the womb are only two of the awful markers; fake elections; fake trials, women forced to work, massive popular substance abuse, fake news agencies, government corruption and oppression, political prisoners, secret police, …..
Vigano has solid &valid accusations minus the validation of pope Francis . I do know that if I were to visit the Vatican anytime soon I would feel the need to shower following that visit. The filth this pope surrounds himself with right down to his choice of comedians. Need I say more !
Has the Vatican ever been a clean place to live?
Yes.
This pontificate comes down hard on those who defend traditional Catholicism or are perceived enemies of the Pope
There is no “doctrine of Vatican II” to be rejected. And regardless of whether he was validly elected or not, Pope Francis has delegitimized not only himself, but the papacy itself. Defenders of this scandalous pontificate of the real problem in the Church today, not outraged bishops prone to intemperate speech.
Deacon Dom, as usual your writings do nothing but protect a pope who has protected the likes of Ted McCarrick and Marco Rupnik who have done far worse things. Did Vigano cross the line, that is to be determined. But the outcome of this “trial” has already been decided much like Bishop Strickland. Francis has long protected those who have questionable morals and silenced those who uphold to the teachings of the faith. I am not, nor have ever been a member of any group outside of the Church. However, I thank God my faith formation was not by some of those in charge today in the Church. Also, show me where Vigano is a sedevacantist as by definition they believe the last valid Pope was Pius XII. Otherwise, you are making false claims.
Another act as the curtain slowly closes on “theater-of-Pontiff-Francis,” heralded by McCarrick as Pontiff Francis came on stage, attested for 10 years by the ensemble of sex abusers and coverup artists from central casting, now “augmented” by their successor in sycophancy the miraculous Rupnik.
Reject the rule of Christ: “admissable” in the theater of Pontiff Francis.
Reject the rule of Pontiff Francis and his cult: a criminal offense to their persons.
Archbishop Viganò you are in my prayers. Keep up the good work. I agree with you. Thank you.
Perolin and “posse”? He/they might as well that those who signed onto
the document calling [and backed by hard evidence ] for Pope Francis to resign because of heresy. Viganó and these learned signers are on the same track. Is the accumulating “pressure” from SUCH hard evidence leveraging Cardinal Perolin [. . or is it that TOTALLY ANTI-Apostolic Mass “back-room” Cardinal??] to father the Vatican’s own “legitimate” push-back?
Take Vigano down and the LEARNED signers of the recent Document calling
for Francis’ RESIGNATION because of well-corroborated instances of
heresy might as well ALSO be “swept under the rug”.
The evidence that Vigano covered for McCarrick and slandered the pope is quite overwhelming but it is obvious the agreed upon lie is to pretend that there is nothing to look at. Otherwise Vigano would be released to slither off to join his father below in whatever pit is handy. If anyone wants to take the trouble to examine the evidence, go to Reason and theology.com click on page 2 at the bottom to find the June 6 article entitled” Uncovering the real story:archbishop Vigano and cardinal McCarrick”
Dear JJR, even if that had some truth, it does nothing to erase the very pertinent criticisms made by AV against the PF clique. Very serious criticisms that are well canvassed in the above comments, if you’d take the time to read them.
Let us never blind ourselves to unpleasant truths; even if the messenger is imperfect.
The serious failures of PF are many (far, far greater than any other modern pope). Much of his teaching & actions can legitimately be described as: ‘anti-Apostolic’.
By giving Holy Communion to public advocates of infanticide, PF is the figurehead advocate for mortal sin and sacrilege. He is proclaiming: “I am right, God is wrong!” For those who believe Catholicism is totally Apostolic, PF is exposed as non-Catholic.
We must never move from the divine reality that: “The Truth will set you free!” To the extent that AV & other senior hierarchs are bravely willing to expose the heterodoxies of the PF faction, millions of ordinary Catholics rejoice that truth still stands.
How to cut the worldwide Gordonian knot that PF’s deceptions have woven?
Let our bishops & cardinals call for his resignation so they can elect a proper Pope.
Ever in the grace & mercy of King Jesus Christ; love & blessings from marty
Not to worry.
Don’t you know that Archbishop Vigano has infinite dignity? 😉
If our dear Abp. Vigano answers this imperious summons from the alleged High Priest of Christendom, he will not survive the journey. (cf. Acts 25:1-12)
Well,well,given the length of this comment section I would have expected Pope Francis to be called “Bergoglio” a couple of dozen times by now. Brineyman so far seems to be the only one who wants the “badge of bonor”. The others keep pussyfooting around the term while confirming their defacto schism and sedvacanism. I will give Vigano one thing, he has done his bit to fulfill the Fatima prophecy that if enough of us did not repent then the errors of Russia would spread all over the world. Vigano praises the new Red Czar’s crimes and endorses the Third Rome idealogy.
Dear ‘JJR’, we gather from your fact-free tirade, that you’re fond of PF but loathe AV, apparently in proud ignorance of what so many well-informed experts have commented.
GOD bless you, anyway!
George Bergoglio is the man’s name, from the vernacular, secular, and legal points of view. Pope Francis is a Church title. Do we address you as “Mister/Miss Layman,” by preferred pronoun, by job title or highest professional earned degree? No? The same applies to Bergoglio. If and when he becomes a saint or a god, even then are we not free to refer to him by the words and labels we choose? Do you not know the man to whom the name ‘Bergoglio’ refers? Has your ‘holy father’ concocted a new commandment against free speech? Do you or does your dad misunderstand the sin of blasphemy? Perhaps I may be accused of a lack of decorum, but that’s as far as I’m able to accuse myself in this milennial year 2024. And if we are in schism or sedevacantism, BY WHAT AUTHORITY DO YOU IMAGINE YOURSELF TO JUDGE US SO? My bishop would beg to differ with you, LOG BEAM.
I think Carlo María Vigano is one of the few authentic voices in the Catholic Church today. While the world is falling apart, who is preparing us to be true to Christ’s teachings. The majority of the Church is on a different agenda including Pope Francis. I dont hear about the true Presence of Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, Confession, Chastity, or any virtue except love thy neighbor. Thank you.