Bishop Robert Barron set off a tempest in a teapot with his rather innocuous observation about the propriety of singing John Lennon’s “Imagine” at Jimmy Carter’s state funeral at the National Cathedral. The bishop thought it paradoxical that in a Christian church, nominally committed to tradition by its ritual and smells-and-bells, a song urged us to imagine there’s “no religion…”
The usual suspects pounced via social media. The initial volley was the “social justice plus” crowd (coupled with Catholic Lite). “Jimmy Carter,” the basic argument went, “fought so hard for social justice and human rights and you strain at a song?”
I won’t belabor the fact that Jimmy Carter did nothing for the human rights of the unborn and that, in his combination of faith and politics, was most likely the Protestant JFK. He was the creation of Protestant ministers when they got candidate Kennedy’s acquiescence in 1960 to separate faith and politics. Those who had not yet adapted to the Zeitgeist then fled to the Moral Majority when their Baptist Frankenstein proved more aligned with liberal politics than traditional values.
There was also the “music requests” argument. Considering that there are no few theologians, liturgists, and organists ready to die on the hill of “No Wedding March” at marriages Masses or “no Captain and Tenille favorite pop song at grandpa’s funeral,” I was surprised at the degree of indulgence of “Imagine”. Some said that Carter himself may have picked it and that it featured in the repertoire at Rosalyn’s funeral. Again, music is an integral part of a religious service; it’s not a dedication on the “pilot of the spiritual airwaves” request show. The test is: does it fit the context?
“It was not a Catholic funeral!” was another retort. Yes, and I commented on that. But it was a Christian funeral and “imagine there’s no religion” sounds as equally, if not more implausible, coming from a low church Baptist as a high church Episcopalian.
Barron’s point was that there was a clear incongruity in singing “imagine there’s no heaven” in a church that slavishly imitated the best of Gothic architecture (as I’ve noted, everybody who wants to give an institution gravitas copies Catholic medieval, not Catholic Seventies). Like ketchup on pheasant under glass, having people dressed up in high church vestments processing around a choir hidden partially by a rood screen just doesn’t go with “imagine there’s no heaven.”
The architecture, of course, also stirred up some of the Catholic traditionalists, who swooned over rood screens and ritual, criticizing the Novus Ordo as impoverished by comparison. I’ll not get into liturgy wars other than to say, in the lyrics of Shania Twain: smells and bells absent a real theology of sacrificial suffrages for needy deceased “don’t impress me much.” Don’t get hung up in the trappings.
All those Christians ought to grasp the basic liturgical concept lex orandi, lex credendi, roughly translated, how we pray expresses what we believe. That includes that we sing in worship (since, as St. Augustine remarked, singing is praying twice). So, if we’re singing in a Christian church “imagine there’s no heaven … no religion, too,” one might suggest a case of spiritual schizophrenia.
Bishop Barron criticized a similar anomaly back in 2021, when Harvard hired an atheist “chaplain.” When challenged, Harvard started dissembling, saying his primary duties were to address nondenominational prayer at events (to whom?), and do admin work like file timesheets. Barron had the temerity to ask how is a chaplain–somebody who is normally understood to be a person who leads people to God (however conceived)–to fulfill that role if he does not believe in God? As I noted at the time, that was as paradoxical as a celebrated European writer saying he wanted to write an opera about Maximilian Kolbe but was unsure how to do it without “making it an advertisement for Christianity.” So, Kolbe starved to death because he was a “nice guy”?
Much of this is tied up with the question of what a funeral is and what it is for. If it is a prayer service to ask for the Lord’s mercy, the ritual prevails. If it is a “celebration of life”—especially when the faith in an afterlife in the congregation may be gauzy, nominal, or simply absent—then it lends itself to the decedent’s playlist hit parade.
Finally came the “T” word: where’s your “tolerance? Why are you so intolerant?” Because you cannot tell me what avowedly secular venue would open itself and lustily sing “Nearer My God to Thee”! It’s only ostensibly religious venues that imagine “no religion, too.” Or at least religious venues with good acoustics, available for rent and hollowed out by half a century of secularization.
Some might think Barron’s criticisms are echoes of the debate simmering in Catholic circles, at least in the United States, about the questionable content of songs that are in Catholic hymnals and regularly sung at Sunday Mass. That may be part of the picture, but Barron’s criticisms also plunge deeper, to the struggle with secularization in Western culture—a fight in which some European ecclesiastics (such as Belgium’s Jozef de Kessel) seem ready to tap out. It also asks whether the secularized West has the will to defend its religious heritage.
Finally, let’s try to imagine the world of “Imagine”. It’s not just about “imagine there’s no heaven” or “no religion.” Imagine a world without those things. The song trades in the old shibboleth that religion is a source of human division and alienation, whose elimination (or at least significant containment) would prosper human welfare.
Do you believe that? Did Jimmy Carter? No, rather than a solution to human problems, it’s been the temptation since Adam and Eve: the flight from a God who defines right and wrong to some gauzy god of “spirituality” has left man far more broken than benefitted. And “imagine there’s no heaven … no hell below us.” If that’s true, then life is hard and then you die, good and evil ending in the same meaningless fate.
Over at The Nation, John Nichols seeks to gaslight, saying that we need a “nuanced understanding” (like Jimmy’s) of what Lennon was singing, because we certainly cannot just believe what our ears are telling us.
However, it’s nowhere near that complex. “Ideas have consequences” wrote Richard Weaver. Even when those ideas are in the form of lyrics.
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Mark Steyn wrote a column about “Imagine” in which he described the song as John Lennon’s “anthem for cotton-candy nihilists.”
Sounds accurate. What an utterly dreary, depressing, icky song.
I took my first cruise trip last year and the great majority of fellow passengers were from the Bible Belt. I met some lovely Christian people.
On the last night of the cruise the ship’s entertainmnt offered a rendition of “Imagine “. “No religion, too…” And a love song sung by two males to each other.
When I received a cruise survey email I asked them how disconnected and out of touch with their passenger base could they possibly be?
Yes, it’s a sad, empty song and absolutely not something you would sing at a Christian funeral.
If they wanted a Beatles song that expresses concern for the poor, the disenfranchised, and the lonely, too bad they didn’t do “Eleanor Rigby”.
I grew up Baptist, and “Imagine” wouldn’t have been allowed in church when I was growing up. I don’t think it was Pres. Carter’s choice, at least I hope it wasn’t!–I think his more liberal relatives probably selected it. I hope it was a comfort to them.
But it just goes to show how Christians can ignore offensive parts of a hymn or song, or a song that is written by an atheist or someone who ignores various requirements of their religion if most of the words of the song are OK and the melody is very pretty. We have quite a few hymns in our missalettes that are like this.
I am a church musician (organist/pianist) that believes we need to purge our missalettes down to about 100 hymns (lighter for older folks and children to hold open) that follow the Church calendar, are totally consistent with the teachings of Holy Mother Church (and that doesn’t mean “just the Latin hymns!” although there should be some Latin hymns included!), and have good, strong, singable melodies–and we need to include ALL FOUR PARTS (soprano, alto, tenor, and bass!) into the printed music so that those of us who have been given lower voices can actually sing our part. And we all need to sing out in our head voices and teach our children how to read music and sing out in their head voices (not the same as our “baseball voices”!).
(Some Catholics keep sighing over the lack of Gregorian chant in the Mass–well, I’ve accompanied groups that attempted to learn some of the Gregorian chant and it is quite difficult and requires a LOT of practice, and a certain voice technique that isn’t the same as “Sweet Caroline”. If people can’t even read a line of music notes for a simple hymn, I can guarantee that they won’t be able to read the neumes of Gregorian chant! We need to do better in our schools at teaching children and tens to read music (the notes, not just the words!).
I am a convert from Evangelical Protestantism, and it’s always a pleasure for me to visit or play piano/organ at a traditional Evangelical Protestant worship service and hear the joyous, powerful singing of the congregation during the traditional and contemporary hymns, even at funerals! When my husband and I converted, our two daughters came to Mass with us, and we always sang out the four parts to the hymns (our parish had hymnals with the parts written out!)–and the people in front of us would turn around to see who was doing the singing, and afterwards they would tell us how good we sounded! (Ha ha!)
Both of our daughters have converted to Catholicism, by the way, as has my son-in-law, and my grandson was baptized Catholic.
Everyone in church should make the effort to sing the hymns that the music minister or pastor has selected for the Mass! The hymns are part of the liturgy–why do Catholics voice the spoken parts, but stand silent, often not even opening the hymnal or missalette to follow along with the words?! (The hymns are supposed to be selected to complement the Mass readings.)
And while I’m on a soapbox, why are so many of our children involved in multiple sports like soccer, swimming, etc., but so few (if any) of our children are involved with piano/organ lessons, other music lessons, and community or church children’s choirs? My daughters were involved in figure skating at a competitive level–and still skate competitively in Adult competitions now that they are much older!–but they were also involved in piano and guitar lessons and sang in children’s and teen choirs–and one of my daughters is earning a really good living in theater (Broadway, etc.)!
I think we Catholics need to remember that the Early Church (Catholic!) martyrs SANG HYMNS as they were being marched into the arena to face a horrific death. We can do better with our Mass music.
I don’t sing hymns that are musical garbage, which is most of those used in the churches I’ve attended over the last couple of decades.
I’m becoming a broken record here but as someone who has sung in parish, deanery, & Latin Mass choirs/scholas it really is quite easy to follow along with *simple* Gregorian chant.
My favorite 4 part harmonies are from the shaped note tradition hymns in the Sacred Harp & similar hymnals. They sound like a cross between Blue Grass & Eastern or Gregorian chant.
Bishop Robert Barron is quite mistaken in his assumption that ANY religion is represented by the National “Cathedral”. It is a pagan temple that simulates a Christian worship space. It is the final degradation of what began in the early 16th c., was given a generous impetus by late 18th c. France and has continued in it disintegration throughtout the 20th century to the present. The entire service was meaningless and that hortible song “Imagine” was most appropriate for the heathens gathered there. Let’s call a spade a spade and stop trying to put lipstick on a pig.
I don’t think all of the attendees were heathens. That’s a little harsh. I’m guessing that many who attended or watching on TV are faithful Protestant and Catholic Christians and were shocked/disgusted to hear “Imagine”, and I’m guessing that many of Pres. Carter’s fellow church members back in Plains, Georgia were also shaking their heads.
Mrs. Sharon Whitlock: It depends on how you define “heathen.” I’d define it as anyone for whom God is not first and foremost in their minds and whose practices reflect that priority.
I hope the good folk in Plains were shaking their heads, too. But I guess if they were old school Baptists they’ve been shaking their heads for some time considering how far Mr. Carter has veered away from a Biblical world view. God rest his soul.
In reference to your comment I was curious to look up something and I googled, “Can gay people be married in the National Cathedral?” The response is an enthusiastic yes, which to me, along with their other bizarre teachings, validates your comment that this is a pagan temple.
This is really quite the shame, because architecturally speaking it is a beautiful edifice, but spiritually dead as a rock.
From the first time I heard that song more than 50 years ago I’ve never thought of it as being much more than silly. There’s another line that is equally inane – “Imagine no possessions, I wonder if you can”.
Garth Brooks and Trisha Yearwood singing it adds just that little touch of ‘je ne sais quoi’ to the mix.
Imagine no possessions? How many mansions did Mr. Beatle own? How many priceless cars?
And how many millions of dollars?
Exactamundo
Bishop Barron is right, of course. Those ritualists present in some “Ecclesia Dei” circles do make of ritual, any ritual, the only thing that matters. It’s a very Anglican attitude. What the Catholic ritualists forget is that the pomp at the Washington Cathedral conceals an appalling emptiness – there is no altar, no priesthood, no sacrifice. The Novus Ordo often, very often, does a great job of concealing the treasures that are present there – the Mass, the priesthood, sacrifice, communion with Christ’s Church. That’s why so many are distracted, lose Catholic sensibilities, even the faith – if they are not reinforced somehow. The bottom line is that the banality of so much modern Catholic worship really does hide incredible treasures. The Washington charade is no model for liturgical restoration. Let nobody even think of it! Instead, let’s look to Dom Gueranger, Pius X, or Mediator Dei. Anglo-Catholicism is doomed to the same grave as Anglicanism.
My sentiments too
Weaver is mentioned. So, this about real imagination and its absence:
“. . . to have enough imagination [!] to see into other lives and enough piety to realize that their existence is a part of beneficent creation is the very foundation of human community. There appear to be two types to whom this kind of charity is unthinkable: the barbarians, who would destroy what is different because it is different, and the neurotic, who always reaches out for control of others, probably because his own integration has been lost” (Ideas Have Consequences, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1948, p. 175).
Right on! I agree and so would St. Alphonsus DeLiquori: “How many are the infidels, heretics, and schismatics who do not enjoy the happiness of the true faith! The earth is full of them, and they all lost!”
But let’s face it, if it was “imagine EVERYONE is in heaven” Bishop Barron probably would have been okay with it.
I’d like to “imagine ” everyone is in Heaven. Why not? We can’t possibly know that though and Scripture doesn’t encourage it.
But I’d rather have hope in others’ salvation, even if they make their peace with God in their very last seconds. Some folks seem to enjoy the notion of God smiting a great number of people. Perhaps He does do that but I take no pleasure in imagining it. At the end of the day it’s His call.
I hope wveryone is in Heaven when they die. Anything beyond that is above my pay grade.
My thoughts too, Deacon Edward.
🙂
I would suggest then, Father Deacon, that you perhaps increase your pay grade. There is an ever-increasing amount of excellent apologia regarding Universalism that is available for your study. For the first 500 years of the church this expression of God’s abundant grace to even the wickedest of sinners was the predominant teaching of the Church, and was taught by men such as St Gregory of Nyssa, St Isaac of Syria, the Cappadocians, St Gregory the Great, and a host of others.
Do you think Hitler and the other murdering dictators from that era went there?
(I’m asking, not pointing the finger)
Were you asking me? I can’t say with certainty that anyone’s in Heaven, outside of those that scripture & the Church have revealed/declared saints.
God can do anything & He gives us every opportunity for Salvation. But we have the free will to reject that.
Knowall, about “Hitler and the other murdering dictators,” this from Benedict XVI, and relevant today:
“(First) I have been absolutely certain that there is something wrong with the theory of the justifying force of the subjective conscience . . . Hitler may have had none (guilt feelings); nor may Himmler or Stalin. Mafia bosses may have none, but it is more likely that they have merely suppressed their awareness of the skeletons in their closets. And the aborted guilt feelings . . . Everyone needs guilt feelings (Pope Benedict XVI, “Values in a Time of Upheaval”, Crossroad, 2006, p. 81; citation in Benedict is from Albert Gorres).
“(And second) The loss of the ability to see one’s guilt, the falling silent of conscience in so many areas, is a more dangerous illness of the soul than guilt that is recognized as guilt (see Psalm 19:12). . . To identify conscience with a superficial state of conviction is to equate it with a certainty that merely seems rational, a certainty woven from self-righteousness, conformism, and intellectual laziness. Conscience is degraded to a mechanism that produces excuses for one’s conduct, although in reality conscience is meant to make the subject transparent to the divine, thereby revealing man’s authentic dignity and greatness” (ibid., pp. 82-83).
So, “the devil made me do it” IS a legitimate excuse? Wasn’t it the woman at the well who went and sinned no more, or was that Martha?
Mrscracker,
About “making…peace with God in their very last seconds,” this hopefulness from St. Faustina:
“I often attend upon the dying and through entreaties obtain for them trust in God’s mercy, and I implore God for an abundance of divine grace, which is always victorious. God’s mercy sometimes touches the sinner at the last moment [!] in a wondrous and mysterious way. Outwardly, it seems as if everything were lost, but it is not so. The soul, illumined by a ray of God’s powerful final grace, turns to God in the last moment with such a power of love that, in an instant, it receives from God forgiveness of sin and punishment, while outwardly it shows no sign either of repentance or of contrition because souls [at that stage] no longer react to external things. Oh, how beyond comprehension is God’s mercy! [….]” (“Diary: Divine Mercy in My Soul,” n. 1698).
Thank you so much for sharing that Mr Peter.
The only good thing about “Imagine” is the melody. It’s a beautiful song, instrument-wise. Lyric-wise, it’s anti-God, and depressingly dystopian.
Unfortunately there are a lot of beautiful, or catchy, or happy-sounding songs with wretched lyrics.
I see on its website that the Cathedral is an Episcopalian church.
That’s all you need to know.
Just keep “Celebrations of Life” out of Catholic funerals.
Thanks for the swipe (I think that’s what it was) at Belgium’s Jozef de Kezel.
The National Cathedral is a beautiful building but has an emptiness inside. There’s a thorn tree on the grounds that was grown from a cutting of Joseph of Arimathea’s thorn tree in Glastonbury, England. The original tree was destroyed but a small piece was preserved to create more trees.
is that where that unique water fountain is? they’ve tolled their bells one time for every thousand “covid” deaths and one of the videos shows a large water fountain which looks to be on the cathedral grounds (one time it was 600 tolls the next time I think 1,000 etc…)
I’ve only visited the National Cathedral once so I’m not sure but I saw this online:
” Near the Bishop’s Garden at the Washington National Cathedral is one of the offspring of the Glastonbury Thorn. The Cathedral, completed in 1990, took 83 years to complete, was actually an integral part of Pierre L’Enfant’s master plan for the capitol city. L’Enfant wanted a church “intended for national purposes, such as public prayer, thanksgiving, funeral orations, etc.,… equally open to all.” In this spirit, the beauty of the Bishop’s Garden and the grandeur of the towers and Gothic architecture are open to all visitors. On December 25th, the Glastonbury Thorn can expect some visitors checking to see if the legendary tree really does bloom on Christmas morning.”
Kesel is probably the most prominent but not the only churchman that still seems to think secularism has redeeming characteristics. I am not surprised, because it was largely the Flemish crowd (Schillebeeckx and the KU Leuven circles) that pushed (and still push) that idea at Vatican II and want to interpret the Council’s remarks about “the autonomy of earthly things” as implicit endorsement of this very 60s (and very wrong) theological current.
Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us, only sky
Imagine all the people
Livin’ for today
Ah
Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Livin’ life in peace
You
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You
You may say I’m a dreamer
But I’m not the only one
I hope someday you’ll join us
And the world will live as one
…………Who popped into your head when you read this anthem to atheism?
This pontificate has been flirting with the philosophies of false prophets.
His reference to Catholic plattitudes aside, I’ve never thought that the actual thought of Francis, carried to their logical conclusions, were ever anything but atheistic.
I have often had the fantasy (alas, I am neither a poet or lyricist) to rewrite songs that are beautiful compositions of music but whose lyrics are despicable and vapid for one reason or another.
Even as a teenager back in the early ‘70s, I felt annoyed by “Imagine” — and not just by the references to no religion or heaven. There was one of the most priveleged men who ever walked the planet, who owned at least two condos in the Dakota on Central Park West, one of which housed his own private recording studio, telling me to “imagine no possessions.” I recall a friend telling me, “Yeah, but John cares.” To which I quoted Liberace: “I’m sure he cries all the way to the bank.”
It is so wonderful to attend a Traditional Latin Low Mass on Sundays. All I ever hear are sound homilies, fussy babies, and the quiet language of prayer my ancestors heard a thousand years ago.
I agree with you Mr. Williams but lately one of our TLM communities has been influenced by politics and conspiracy theories to the point I just don’t feel comfortable there. It’s a shame. Ive attended the TLM for years and years and this is the first time I’ve experienced distressing political narratives.
I guess it’s a part of the division and distrust we see everywhere in our society today. It’s a shame. But I agree with you in spirit. The TLM liturgy is beautiful and so are all the young families and little ones.
I doubt if the musicians on the Titanic would have considered that song as a hopeful or soothing rendition to present those preparing to quite likely meet their Maker in short order.
(per Wiki)
After the Titanic hit an iceberg and began to sink, Hartley and his fellow band members started playing music to help keep the passengers calm as the crew loaded the lifeboats. Many of the survivors said that Hartley and the band continued to play until the very end. Reportedly, their final tune was the hymn “Nearer, My God, to Thee”,[3] although other sources suggest it was “Songe d’Automne” (also known simply as “Autumn”). One second-class passenger said:
Many brave things were done that night, but none were more brave than those done by men playing minute after minute as the ship settled quietly lower and lower in the sea. The music they played served alike as their own immortal requiem and their right to be recalled on the scrolls of undying fame.[4]
All eight musicians died in the sinking.
Considering the times in which it was written, I imagine Imagine may have been about what is reality, finding yourself and rationalizing sin since there was no tomorrow after death. Mr. Carter may have looked on it as how could the earthly world exist if there wasn’t heaven. (please exclude the poor grammar)
In the British film about the sinking of the Titanic, Nearer My God to Thee is sung to a different melody than we usually hear in the States and it’s hauntingly beautiful.
I think the film was A Night to Remember. It’s worth Googling for the scene with the band playing that.
yes, you can watch it in its entirety in either B & White or color for free
Thank you knowall. That’s a good reminder for me to watch the entire film again. Movies like that surely move my thoughts towards Eternity, unlike John Lennon’s lyrics. May he rest in peace.
April 15, 1912, 2:20 a.m.:
“The ship was almost vertical in the water, then that portion behind the after expansion joint suddenly broke off and settled back slightly as the forward three-fourth of the ship started to descend toward the bottom of the sea, the remaining funnels breaking as they came into contact with the water […] The after part of the ship which appeared to have broken off was still attached to the keel, and as the forward part of the ship sank, it pulled the after portion upright, almost 200 feet of the ship, into a vertical position. There it remained for a few second, stationary, as bulkheads collapsed and it lost its buoyancey, then the stern portion started to slide into the sea [….] Five minute after the last lifeboat floated off the ship and two hours and forty minutes after striking the iceberg, Titanic disappeared beneath the surface of the North Atlantic Ocean” (minute by minute reconstruction from survivor accounts, by Lee W. Merideth, “1912 Facts about Titanic,” Historical Indexes Publishing Co., 1999).
–Part of a recent documentary featured an undamaged violin found floating on the surface at the Titanic site two weeks later, secure in its waterproof leather case. Thought to be authentic as a violin played on the deck of the Titanic until the very last minutes when the owner sealed and saved it from the sinking.
Interesting, that makes sense as sounds like they were calm until the end, possibly including taking care of their tools.
I wonder if that violin has been played since then?
A beautiful video of the perfromance of “Nearer My God To Thee” is on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yRC1VJsCk8
wow, thank you. I am forwarding to a couple families who can use the power and hope of the Almighty in their lives right now
I’d just like to ask the people at the service who were satisfied to listen to “Imagine there’s no heaven,” just where they think Carter is now.
See, I think you catch the nub of the problem. Either the song makes no sense OR we really believe he’s dead as a doornail, “that’s all there is” as Peggy Lee told us, and so we pretend to babble about a “better place” when we really think that better place is six feet in cold Georgia ground.
Perfect question☺️
Presidential purgatory? ..where the election results are always too close to call?
Nah. Jimmy Carter likely neither imagined nor believed in purgatory. He probably believed himself blessed despite Jesus’ saying adultery in thought was adultery indeed. So there’s that.
Everything that you said about the song “Imagine” is spot on.
I would like to comment on your phrase “celebration of life.” My understanding of the purpose of Catholic funerals is twofold – to pray for the deceased and to comfort the family and friends. I have been to funerals which seemed like canonization ceremonies – “Well Susan is now on heaven.” If this were known to be true it would relieve me of any requirement to pray for her or to have Masses said for her. It sometimes seems that the four final things have been reduced to the three final things – death, judgement and heaven.
Maybe we should not go back to the old requiem mass with black vestments and the Dies Irae of my alter boy youth. But maybe there could at least be a middle ground.
Why not the old requiem mass with black vestments and the Dies Irae…? That is a very good form to get people understanding just what is happening. “Requiem aeternam dona is Domine” from the Introit is a very comforting thought. Give them eternal rest, O Lord.
I’ll take the black vestments and Dies Irae. I don’t need people praising me, I need them to pray for me.
Ive told my children to find an old timey priest with a scary homily for my funeral. No Celebration of Life nonsense. I want people to pray for my soul. Not to imagine I’m already in Heaven.
Yes.
Yes.
John Lennon might have had a well-intentioned, child-like desire to eliminate strife from earth, so everyone can have peace. He was right, in that if you go after matters of ultimacy, you will undo most noxious terrestrial conflict. But the conflict is over morality, right and wrong, good and evil – the very point of religion.
But let’s go farther than the ex-Beatle did.
“Imagine no language … end of all song” That would put an end to all the conflict, yes?
Lennon could have said “Imagine no love.. or evil” and now you would have nothing left of the human enterprise at all. He didn’t do that either…
Yes, imagine….. the power of silence
Hm..
Well, the “Sound of Silence” is other artists’ work. Anyway, yes, I heard this puerile image of just wanting and wishing things were different. That’s been the wish since Eden and won’t be realized until the Last Day. My problem is not the wish but the idea that institutions like church and state are the cause of the dysfunction. Ideas have consequences.
what does asleep in Christ mean? thank you
I was riffing on Cardinal Sarah there at the end… Religion’s ultimate last word
Better to pause quietly for the Divine Will than utter hastily human will inanities.
I appreciate your thoughts, and definitely the prescient article.
It is not just an idea, but unfortunately a rather sordid fact of Christianity, that the union of church and state which began with Constantine has done great damage to the church and then the cause of much conflict.
Perhaps when John Lennon was writing his song, he looked at 2,000 years of Christians killing each other in the name of Jesus, and let his mind go to a flight of fantasy as to what might have happened had there been no religion.
Apparently Lennon was ill-educated about the tens of millions killed by Communist regimes in the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, Cambodia, etc., etc. Yes, the church-state relationship, historically and otherwise, is complicated and often sordid and bloody. But Marxism/Communism killed far more people in 60-70 years than Christians did in 20 centuries. It’s not even close.
And, of course, if there had been no religion (or Christianity, specifically), Lennon would have never existed, in terms of music, artistry, etc. To paraphrase Chesterton, if you think things are bad with Christianity, you cannot even fathom how bad they would have been without.
Lennon also wrote:
“Ch…t you know it ain’t easy
You know how tough it can be
The way things are going
They’re trying to crucify me.”
Is there any greater a matter of ultimacy than eternity which begins upon one’s death? Lennon was wrong. Jesus was right.
If Jimmy Carter got what “Imagine” imagines, then he got nothing. The song is a self-negating wish. I sure hope God wasn’t listening.
Kesel is probably the most prominent but not the only churchman that still seems to think secularism has redeeming characteristics. I am not surprised, because it was largely the Flemish crowd (Schillebeeckx and the KU Leuven circles) that pushed (and still push) that idea at Vatican II and want to interpret the Council’s remarks about “the autonomy of earthly things” as implicit endorsement of this very 60s (and very wrong) theological current.
Not that it matters, because John Lennon was not a moral authority, but he later repuidated the “ideas” contained in his stupid song. He was nothing more than a drugged-up, degeneratre pop star. The problem is that you could tell this to the average fan who takes this dreck seriously and it will make no impact whatsoever. Imagine that.
I was saddened by the irreverence of the former Presidents during the service. Too bad the press thought they had to cover it.
Well John, the 70s band Steely Dan would certainly agree with you (“Only a Fool would Say That”, 1972). But unless we’re doing away entirely with separation of church and state, where is the space for the individual conscience? I mean, Christianity is without question better than the alternatives–especially atheism–but it’s not like there isn’t some truth in the claim that religion causes conflict. (Thirty-years War, anyone??)
At the end of the day, it seems that griping for over 1,000 words about 1 song in a 3 hour funeral, and defaming a man (“Frankenstein”…really?!?!?) who made the Christian faith more central to American policy than anyone since Abraham Lincoln (close 2nd to George W Bush under the influence of Michael Gerson); who probably did more for Israel’s security than anyone in world history since King David; and who most certainly did plenty for “the human rights of the unborn” (assuming food, shelter, and peace matter to pregnant mothers) strikes me as more than a little petty and short-sighted, my friend.
Listen to FDR’s prayer speech just before D Day and you might change your tune a bit:
At 9:57 that night, Roosevelt’s prayer began:
Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our Nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity. Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith. They will need Thy blessings…. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.
Roosevelt then shifted his prayer to the suffering, loss and grief that were likely to come.
Men’s souls will be shaken with the violences of war. Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.
Roosevelt then turned to Americans at home, pleading with them to continue with their prayers and to make any and all sacrifices to support America’s fight to liberate Europe.
“Many people have urged that I call the Nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer…. O Lord, give us Faith. Give us Faith in Thee; Faith in our sons; Faith in each other; Faith in our united crusade. Let not the keenness of our spirit ever be dulled.
This is how Roosevelt ended things. It may be the most powerful and purposeful part of any public address by an American wartime president.
With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogancies. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister Nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace, a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil. Thy will be done, Almighty God. Amen.”
Rob Hollister, Jr: You write, “but it’s not like there isn’t some truth in the claim that religion causes conflict. (Thirty-years War, anyone??)”
I offer you a much-needed correction. It is NOT religion that causes conflict. It is sin that causes conflict. People pervert religion in order to act out the sin in their hearts. That’s why the lyrics of this song are patently absurd. It’s people like John Lennon and those creepy sentimentalists on the Left who reject the notion of sin and, along with it, deify the human person.
Rob Hollister Jr,
About the referenced THIRTY YEARS WAR, things get a bit more murky than pinning the cause on “religion” as some do. Following the Reformation and the inseparable birth of nation-states, perhaps the Thirty Years War was actually more about dynastic/secular politics than religion.
It was for POLITICAL reasons that Catholic France, steered by the Catholic (!) chief minister of state, Cardinal Richelieu under King Louis XIII, sided with the Protestant countries (!) to the north. By this political alliance, and even in league with the Turks, France upstaged the Catholic Austro-Spanish Empire of the Hapsburgs for supremacy on the emerging European political game board. And, from all this, the eventual nation-state system which, combined with explosive Technocracy (a falsified secular religion?) gave us the catastrophes of World Wars I and II, and much else in our post-Christian, post-civilization.
Murky, murky, murky. The mystery of EVIL in the world has a lot to do with the mystery of sin, and this is a real, original and truly religious question. Some even say that all political discord is ultimately theological in origin.
SUMMARY: Yes, “some truth in the claim that [falsified] religion causes conflict,” but also and first with DiaconusSineNomine, our deeply alloyed entanglement with sin—from the beginning and always original to our very selves: the mystery of “original sin.”
Imagining there’s no heaven is the definition of a nightmare. It’s not for me, thank you.
Poor Bishop Barron; he seems to get it from all sides these days, so he must be doing something right. He’s definitely right about this one.
Mr. Grondelski above – De Kezel is no longer the chief honcho in Belgium.
I have hopes for his successor, Luc Verlinden, but haven’t got enough information to guess at an assessment. Hope springs eternal (but this is Belgium we’re talking about.
I know, but he just gave another speech in Rome I think talking about the positive contributions of secularism to Christianity.
Imagine a rabid anti-Semite like James Earl Carter Jr. standing before the judgment throne of the King of the Jews.
Freemasonic bastardisation of a Catholic funeral is only made possible because of Novos Ordo; this is impossible with traditional latin mass.
Novos Ordo – itself a denigration of Catholic Mass – can sometimes be celebrated with dignity.
TLM can never be offered in an undignified manner. It is Real Deal Catholicism. Everything else is blowing in the wind of Permanent Change and Adaptation to Freemasonic New World Order.
If you are upset about John Lennons Imagine being sung in church then you do not understand the meaning of the song at all. It’s a beautiful song about peace and living in peace with your neighbor. More Biblical than some hymns that are sung today.
So, like John and Yoko, you want everyone to “imagine” a world where there is no heaven, no hell, no religion, and therefore, no God (because you rejected His Word when you decided that there was no heaven and hell). And you “imagine” that this will magically make all people live in peace and give you the fantasy of peaceful coexistence that you crave.
I pray that you think more deeply about the truths of the Faith taught to us by Jesus Christ.
“It’s a beautiful song about peace and living in peace with your neighbor.”
No, it’s not.
Imagining that there’s no heaven, above us only sky, living for today, there’s no religion – that is a description of Hell on earth.
“Song At Funeral Comforts Everyone By Telling Them There’s No Heaven, Religion Is A Lie, And Everything Is Ultimately Meaningless”
Babylon Bee Headline
John Lennon was the pacifist egalitarian philosopher of the Beatles. Imagine. Atheistic ideations typical of a peaceful world view free of order. It is nihilism as identified by Leslie.
Although, isn’t that the underlying view of existence that motivates unprincipled liberty famously defined by SC Justice Anthony Kennedy in Casey. Kennedy was a Catholic. Then so is Biden. Catholicism today is not granpa’s religion. Nor was Jimmy Carter’s Baptist religion typical of hardshell Southern Baptist. And sadly we have to honestly admit a slew of Catholics are at heart Imaginists. How frequently do we hear of the wish to have their ashes strewn to the wind at a favorite locale?
Grondelski attacks “imagine there’s no heaven … no hell”. People don’t want to hear about commitment, responsibility, and consequences. They really want life to be a Lennon lyrical muse set to music giving it a magical reality. A religiosity all its own. We can say it’s love absent of pain. We can’t say it’s not love for oneself, absent of love for others.
It can be said that in a way Jimmy Carter helped produce the martyr saint out of Oscar Romero. The Archbishop wrote the President pleading to stop the U.S. financial and military assistance to El Salvador as its soldiers acted as agents of human rights abuses, terror and death against its citizens by orders of the military dictators leading the country. Carter did not heed Romero. The Archbishop was martyred while presiding the Eucharist by a military hitman a few months before Carter ended his presidency. (The one who ordered the assassination, General Carlos Eugenio Vides Casanova, was helped by the U.S. hide in Florida from the arms of justice after the Salvadoran Civil War from 1989 until 2015 when he was deported back to be charged for this assassination.)
https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/we-must-remain-catholic-even-as-freemasons-attempt-to-destroy-the-church/
CONSECRATION TO THE HOLY FAMILY
https://www.catholictradition.org/Joseph/holy-family.htm
Bravo, Fr.Baron! Typical 70’s nothing song,Strawberry Fields would’ve been better…😆 I voted for “Jimma” as a dopey 18 year old with a new right to vote.Havent voted Dem since. God rest him, Clinton, Biden and Obama make President Carter look like Thomas Jefferson.
For those with even a nodding appreciation of the craft of poetry, along with a solid, deep faith, this song has got to be the most shallow, self-righteous, and cringe-inducing set of lyrics ever written in the musical history of the modern world.